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Author Topic: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy  (Read 5209 times)

Offline alexgv1

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2011, 09:46:12 PM »
It's triage, you either drop the lowest and most vulnerable in society or you help them at your expense. There is no free lunch.

What's the difference if income tax goes to state or federal government?
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2011, 10:01:45 PM »
It's triage, you either drop the lowest and most vulnerable in society or you help them at your expense. There is no free lunch.

It is not that there are 46 or 47% of the population that are unemployed, or not earn any income.  Most of them work, earn incomem but they are not contributing anything.  If you are not asked to contribute anything, you have no stake in the country and its solvency.

What's the difference if income tax goes to state or federal government?

Every state has a different tax system.  Some don't even have a state income.  So to talk to general, you talk about federal income taxes, that apply to all 50 states.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 10:04:07 PM by JumboShrimp »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2011, 10:03:47 PM »
I'm down with the Republicans.... McCain would have looked after the troops.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Online ZombieSlayer

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2011, 06:04:28 AM »
I can.

It's called REAL LIFE - the owner of a company can't be held liable for paying the bills of a company he works for, he is merely an employee who is employed by the company to help run it properly. Clearly he did not do his job well, granted, and the company is now suffering, but you cannot blame the owner of a company that hasn't paid the bills they owe you when it is up to you to choose wisely who or who not to sell your product to. Poor judgement on the part of your friend is not the fault of a chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, the courts, the company or any of the companies employees. If you don't sell to one person, usually that means one should find another buyer - and you can still make money. One lost sale is just one lost sale, pick another buyer and sell to them instead. Usually they pay the bills. The second you point a finger at someone else for something that failed, you're just blaming others for poor planning and judgement on your part.

Regardless, when did this topic turn into why chapter 11s are bad?

Cheers,
ICEcold

The owner can and will be held responsible for the debt of a company, no matter what. If the company is a small, unincorporated business, the owner likely has his/her personal money invested and used, at least to an extend, personal credit to build the business. IF the business collapses, they are on the hook for the debt incurred. If they can not pay off the creditors, they may have to file a personal bankruptcy. If the company is publicly traded, the "owners" (share holders) are held responsible in the form of losing their investment as shares will normally be worthless after a bankruptcy filing. In an LLC, the company is "owned" by the creditors (banks, investors, etc.) so if that company collapses, those "owners" have lost their money.

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2011, 06:40:04 AM »
B/K is all good as long as they don't do it 5 times otherwise it will cost them another 5 credits  ;D

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2011, 06:47:52 AM »
B/K is all good as long as they don't do it 5 times otherwise it will cost them another 5 credits  ;D

Post of year.  ;D

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2011, 09:10:13 PM »
Wow getting told about real life by a 14 year old. Now that's real talk.

I know little of it myself, but don't go to profess it to others, least of a my superiors.

Main point is wapp's friend got f*cked and we can't be having that.

I'm not 14, thank you.  :-\

Offline alexgv1

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2011, 09:28:54 PM »
Oh happy birthday for your 15th then Austin.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2011, 10:14:40 PM »
keep going.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2011, 10:21:14 PM »
keep going.

Happy N/Ath birthday!!  8)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2011, 06:07:51 AM »
The owner can and will be held responsible for the debt of a company, no matter what. If the company is a small, unincorporated business, the owner likely has his/her personal money invested and used, at least to an extend, personal credit to build the business. IF the business collapses, they are on the hook for the debt incurred. If they can not pay off the creditors, they may have to file a personal bankruptcy. If the company is publicly traded, the "owners" (share holders) are held responsible in the form of losing their investment as shares will normally be worthless after a bankruptcy filing. In an LLC, the company is "owned" by the creditors (banks, investors, etc.) so if that company collapses, those "owners" have lost their money.

Don

Sorry I didnt see this post before.

NO.  The owner is NOT responsible for any debt that a Corporation signs for.  This is why banks who lend to smaller corporations make the owners (anyone who has more than 20%) sign a personal guarantee along with the corporations guarantee.   A corporation is a de facto person.  It files its own taxes.  It is viewed as a legal entity.  Without the personal guarantee, the company could bankrupt and the owner could walk away.  Without the guarantee, all the bank could do is to go after the business' assets only.  This is why when we file liens in the USA, we file with the UCC (Commerical Code).  You can't sell your assets without the bank having first crack at getting its money back.  Sorry Mr Small Business Owner, your company doesn't have the credit to stand on its own without you being a co-signer for it.

This is why I find the stories listed above about 'how my friend was screwed by bankruptcy law' to hold much water.  I know better.  Sorry, I am a business banker.  This is one area of expertise I really do have. 

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2011, 05:00:43 PM »
My dad is, too - and I'm taking Corporate Law as one of my minors. So i know a thing or two about corporations. ;)

Cheers,
Austin

Offline EYguy

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2011, 05:59:29 PM »
What's the whole thing with Obama has to do with AA?

Frankly the rest of the world (yes America, there is more) would like Obama to stay. He opens up to the rest of the world, he's got a brain, he's got a vision.

The alternatives are frankly downright dangerous... like Bachmann who's stupid as a lamppost and still thinks the Soviet Union is alive and Cain who's keeping his own brothel so it seems.

That aside,

what I meant to say earlier in this whole conversation.

Although a Chapter 11 might be fair in the domestic market of the USA, globally, it's unfair competition. When AF/KL or BA or whatever airline does what AA has been doing for years, they'd go bust. Finito. The end.

In my opinion and I'm guessing I'm not the only one who thinks that, Chapter 11 is a free ticket for mismanagement and incompetence as it will all turn out alright in the end. The CEO gets his bonus and the airline stays afloat. If that's America's idea of a free economy...  :o

I agree with Dasha up to a point. She's right when she says that Chapter 11 is for top managers the same thing as the "Leave prison for free" in Monopoly. IMHO there should be some kind of responability on behalf of the top management for these outcomes. And I'm writing you from Italy, where the government bailed out Alitalia a lot of times (since it was a government owned company).

I reckon that one of the aims of Chapter 11 is to give companies a second chance and to avoid "serial bankrupcies": killing a company could lead to a chain reaction of bankrupcies in the country because we are not talking about peanuts. It would also shock the whole air transport industry both in the USA and abroad (AA is part of One World). So, for a quiet living, Chapter 11 is the answer... There would be some layoffs, but not as many as if AA went bankrupt. Banks will have their money back, sometime in the future and probably not the whole amount, but it is better than than a kick in the t***s, I reckon! :)

Chapter 11 is not an anti competitive practice: as Sigma rightly pointed out, it exists in almost every country of this world even if it has different rules and has different names.

Moreover, it can probably be a parachute for incompetent managers, but it is also a parachute for honest employees of the company who have no faults for the behaviour of their managers and their wrong decisions.
The purchase of new a/c is probably the wisest choice made by the managers of AA. I have no idea of which reason led to the break up between unions and management, but I somehow have the feeling that it is realted to this huge order as well. Probably some memebers of the crews (both pilots and cabin staff) would have to be laid off...


Regards

PS: I find quite funny that Dasha, coming from a country which once was the living symbol of socialism, speaks in such anti-socialist terms, eheheh! :)

Offline EYguy

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2011, 06:20:00 PM »
China, not Japan. 

Also, the US has built itself in to a symbiotic relationship with China.  Neither can survive without the other.  If the US defaults and doesn't buy goods from China, China disappears overnight. 

My Palestinian marketing professor said it best:   China is the manufacturer, India is tech support, the USA is innovation and Europe is a museum.

I have to disagree with your palestinian professor. Just would like to remind him that he teaches marketing, not economics and that Germany alone is the second biggest exporter in the world immediately after China, with more tha 1000BILLIONS of Euro of export goods. And I'm talking about GOODS, not paperwork generated by banks... :) I'd say that China is the manufacturer of crap, Europe makes quality stuff, the USA makes money circulating around the world and India does the Tech Support. Japan and the USA make innovation together...

Offline swiftus27

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #74 on: December 25, 2011, 12:18:43 PM »
Germany needs a weak euro to continue growing. I don't think he considered eurozone exports as true exports, though.  The guy is brilliant.  To give you an example, he taught one class over a summer on thurs night.   The company contracting him flew him first class back on thurs, back to boston on friday and back home fri night.  He lives alone in a monster house because he married his job instead.  He taught us our 'capstone' class for our MBA program.


Offline EYguy

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #75 on: December 25, 2011, 09:29:51 PM »
Well, if you consider that Germany is not big country but the secondi biggest exporter of the world, and 80% of its export are quality goods, the concept of "Eurozone export" is quite useless.

I do not know the exact figures but I can tell you that Germany is always in the first three position when we talk about exchange between developed and developing countries. And between developed and developed countries as well. The nice thing about those guy who eat wurestel and bratkartoffelnd is that they make such good products that nobody really cares that much about their prices. Just to give you an example: BMW, Audi and Mercedes made record profits during the years when the Euro was at its peak on the USD. And the country where the bulk of Maybach limousine are sold is the US, then the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and Russia.

The Euro is not so weak on the chinese RMB, and I can tell you so because my sister lives in China and she said that the ex-rate has not changed that much in the last three years. But the inflation rate in China is just very high and that's what hurts her salary.

And let's talk about first class flight: I flew from Italy to Abu Dhabi at the end of August, and my customer (we were in a hurry) paid a first class ticket for me with Lufthansa. And I'm just a guy in a junior position in a low managerial job. So, no big deal... ;) Nobody pays you a price if he/she can not get more of what he/he pays you for, ehehe! :)

Regards

Fariiniq

  • Former member
Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2012, 10:59:50 PM »
Wow, now that is not called for.

You clearly don't know the diff from chap 7 and 11.  

While you're there why not talk about the fact that Greece just did something similar to what americans know as a chapter 13 screwing banks out of billions.  No one is saying AA will get the massive writedown that Greece had....  or to mention Italys debt or Icelands complete bankruptcy/failure.  Honestly, if it weren't for germany bailing europe out, the euro would have failed by now

In the end it is the big banks who are taking the hit.  The same evil ones many are protesting. 

We are protesting the banks % state's earlier decisions that lead to them being screwed. Removing limits for example, enabling banks to give loans with too high risks. Capitalism to it's extent at the moment won't simply work and a good indication of that is the constant bankruptcies. Simply put, everyone should start realising, if you have 100 and take a loan of 20 to loan someone 120 with a good fee, it just won't work. When you loose the 120 and the fee, you can't pay the 20 and the guy who loaned you 20 gets screwed and most likely he borrowed 40 to borrow 20 for you and another guy and the guy he borrowed it from also gets screwed. It goes on and on and on and. You shouldn't ever be able to take a loan to loan someone something. You do that and everything slowly collapses. And the euro is basically gone already. Anyone who studies currencies can tell you that reviving the euro will just make the hit harded the next time and harder and harder and harder. The problem is you need to keep convincing everyone the euro will revive 'cause that helps the euro reviving. It affects the markets for example. And of course there are some sides in the whole mouse and cat game who only gain things from the euro's current state. Germany for example.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2012, 12:17:40 AM »
We are protesting the banks % state's earlier decisions that lead to them being screwed. Removing limits for example, enabling banks to give loans with too high risks. Capitalism to it's extent at the moment won't simply work and a good indication of that is the constant bankruptcies. Simply put, everyone should start realising, if you have 100 and take a loan of 20 to loan someone 120 with a good fee, it just won't work. When you loose the 120 and the fee, you can't pay the 20 and the guy who loaned you 20 gets screwed and most likely he borrowed 40 to borrow 20 for you and another guy and the guy he borrowed it from also gets screwed. It goes on and on and on and. You shouldn't ever be able to take a loan to loan someone something. You do that and everything slowly collapses. And the euro is basically gone already. Anyone who studies currencies can tell you that reviving the euro will just make the hit harded the next time and harder and harder and harder. The problem is you need to keep convincing everyone the euro will revive 'cause that helps the euro reviving. It affects the markets for example. And of course there are some sides in the whole mouse and cat game who only gain things from the euro's current state. Germany for example.

 nice argument.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2012, 12:24:51 AM »
nice argument.

You mean you understood it?  I didn't.

Offline ArcherII

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Re: American Airlines files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2012, 12:53:07 AM »
He did, and he should. Otherwise we're all screwed as civilization  :laugh:

 

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