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Author Topic: London Stansted?  (Read 1894 times)

Offline MidlandDeltic

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London Stansted?
« on: November 14, 2011, 05:52:19 PM »
Is there any reason London Stansted is not in DotM3 yet?  From www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stansted_Airport:

Quote
Commercial operations

Beginning in 1966, after Stansted was placed under BAA control, the airport was used by holiday charter operators wishing to escape the higher costs associated with operating from Heathrow and Gatwick. From the outset, however, BAA and the British government planned to develop Stansted into London's third airport, to relieve Heathrow and Gatwick of excess congestion in the future. The airport's first terminal building opened in 1969 and was expanded the next year to handle the growing number of passengers.

Offline Sanabas

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 06:06:38 PM »
Any reason not to use search?  ;)

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,35031.0.html has the details.

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 06:15:47 PM »
Well how come its in JA then?  :-\

Offline Sanabas

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 06:21:20 PM »
Check the date of that thread. Check the date JA started.  ;)

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 06:23:42 PM »
Sorry guys! Same for Milan in DOTM3...  ::)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline MidlandDeltic

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 09:55:23 PM »
Any reason not to use search?  ;)

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,35031.0.html has the details.

Sarcasm noted.  It was in DotM2, but not in 3, hence the question.  Apologies for not noting something "new" in "Archive".  Silly me.......

To others; thanks.  I will however do some research via other channels, as I am fairly sure that there were scheduled operations into Stansted prior to the new terminal being built.

MD

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 12:43:00 AM »
Sarcasm noted.  It was in DotM2, but not in 3, hence the question.  Apologies for not noting something "new" in "Archive".  Silly me.......

To others; thanks.  I will however do some research via other channels, as I am fairly sure that there were scheduled operations into Stansted prior to the new terminal being built.

MD

Read my thread and check all the citations. I did some quite extensive research and the evidence is quite compelling. It was all chartered flights before the new terminal, and a prerequisite to be included in AWS is scheduled commercial flights which didn't happen until then.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JonesyUK

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 01:14:53 PM »
Seem's daft to me, I'm sure the majority of flights in the UK are Charter rather than schedule, especially before the low cost airlines arrived.

While it did operate scheduled flights in the early years, Gatwick was mainly used for Charter flights rather than Heathrow, so should it's demand be cut?

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 02:36:24 PM »
Let's not all cry just because our favourite airport has gone. Why not just face the facts.

It's true Gatwick was the main charter hub for the uk and still is hence why it will still be around even if they do build this super hub to replace heathrow.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Dan380

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 05:17:00 PM »
The term "charter" today is used in a different context to the 1970s/80s. Airlines like Monarch, Thomson and Thomas Cook (the big guys at gatwick) are often refered to as charter, when in fact the majority of their flights are scheduled. Charter 30 years ago was more in line with the likes of what Astreaus or Titan do today. That is, flying wholly on behalf of tour operators. And that demand is not replicated in the game.

Offline MidlandDeltic

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 10:03:31 PM »
Read my thread and check all the citations. I did some quite extensive research and the evidence is quite compelling. It was all chartered flights before the new terminal, and a prerequisite to be included in AWS is scheduled commercial flights which didn't happen until then.

I did read the tread Alex, but was unconvinced  - which is why I have also done some research.  AirUK was a scheduled airline, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirUK, specifically :

Quote
"Third Force"

Air UK was the name of the new airline resulting from the merger of BIA and Air Anglia.[4] (BIA had already absorbed Exeter-based Air Westward in March 1979.[3][16] Cardiff-based Air Wales had become part of Air Anglia in June of that year.[2][17]) It was incorporated on January 1, 1980.[2][3] Operations commenced on January 16, 1980.[18] At the time of its inception, Air UK was the largest regional airline in the UK and the country's third-largest scheduled carrier.[2][3][19] It had a staff of 1,700, carried more than 1m, mainly scheduled, passengers annually and had a fleet of 40 aircraft,[20] consisting of six jets (four ex-BIA BAC One-Eleven 400s and two ex-Air Anglia Fokker F-28 4000 series Fellowships) and 34 turboprops (including eighteen ex-BIA Handley Page Dart Heralds, ten ex-Air Anglia Fokker F-27 100/200 series Friendships and six Embraer 110 Bandeirantes originally part of the BIA, Air Wales and Air Westward fleets). Apart from the four One-Eleven 400s, which were predominantly operated on charter flights,[20] all the other aircraft were part of Air UK's scheduled service fleet.

For marketing purposes, there was no gap between the letters "U" and "K" in the "Air UK" logo in the newly merged entity's first livery, which was a stylised Union Flag.

Former BIA managing director Peter Villa became Air UK's first MD as well.

At the time of its creation, Air UK was sometimes referred to as the unofficial "Third Force" among the main contemporary scheduled airlines in the UK (British Caledonian (BCal) being the UK's official "Second Force" and British Airways (BA) the primary UK flag carrier at that time).[20][21]

Following the merger, most of the fleet progressively adopted Air UK's new blue, white and red colour scheme. Originally, this featured a predominantly blue fuselage with a white-red-white strip across the windows and a white roof. The tail was also predominantly blue, apart from the "Air UK" logo.[22][23] However, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) disapproved of this predominantly blue livery, arguing that it could potentially pose a safety hazard for other aircraft as it was difficult for other crews to see the blue aircraft against a blue sky. To address the CAA's safety concerns, Air UK decided to amend its original colour scheme by opting for a hybrid blue-and-white scheme featuring a blue fuselage and a white tail.[19]

Air UK's scheduled route network initially served the following 33 points: Aberdeen, Amsterdam, Basle, Belfast, Bergen, Birmingham, Blackpool, Bournemouth, Brussels, Dublin, Düsseldorf, Edinburgh, Exeter, Glasgow, Guernsey, Humberside, Isle of Man, Jersey, Leeds/Bradford, Le Touquet, London Gatwick, London Heathrow, London Stansted, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Ostend, Paris, Rotterdam, Southampton, Southend, Stavanger, and Teeside.[1]

Air UK was the first and, at the time, only scheduled airline in the UK to fly from all three main London airports.[24]

I contend therefore that Stansted WAS in scheduled use by 1980, and presumably before that under the Air Anglia banner.

BTW, it is not my "favourite" airport - I have never based there in AWS, and not routed there much either.  I just noticed it was missing, and raised the question.

MD

MD

Offline JonesyUK

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 10:36:10 PM »
The term "charter" today is used in a different context to the 1970s/80s. Airlines like Monarch, Thomson and Thomas Cook (the big guys at gatwick) are often refered to as charter, when in fact the majority of their flights are scheduled. Charter 30 years ago was more in line with the likes of what Astreaus or Titan do today. That is, flying wholly on behalf of tour operators. And that demand is not replicated in the game.

Ah, I always assumed they operated the same as they do today, where they are basically scheduled airlines for holiday companies. Still, the point remains, should demand be cut in Gatwick be cut in the 70's then?

It also seems illogical to take it out when the aim of the game is to move to city based demand... I mean, if an airline wanted to set up a base to run scheduled operations from Stansted in the 70's, I'm sure they would have been able to. The airport was built and operational. Plus it looks like AirUK operated scheduled flights from there anyway.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 03:35:38 AM »
No offense but get a better source than Wikipedia then come back. I could have just written that all for you.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline MidlandDeltic

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2011, 09:45:07 AM »
No offense but get a better source than Wikipedia then come back. I could have just written that all for you.

None taken.  The lead on AirUK came from "No Frills - The Truth Behind the Low Cost Revolution in the Skies" by Simon Calder (page 77, Virgin Books, 2002 - ISBN 1 85227 932 X).  Quote from para 3 on said page:

Quote
'A perfectly adequate small regional airport had existed for decades, serving mostly cargo, charters and AirUK's network of domestic and European flights

The distinction between charters and the AirUK network is clear.  Air UK was eventually to become KLM UK, then Buzz before being sold / subsumed into Ryanair.  He also references Cubana flights to Havana via Gander in that period along with others unspecified, but I have been unable so far to corroborate this - hence my not including it in my previous post.

Looking at your links, I would suggest that the Stansted Information website has paraphrased the BAA Stansted website you also reference, and neither is by any means a full history.  In the case of the latter, it will want to emphasise the results of the invesment in the Foster terminal to avoid looking like the waste it very nearly became - I remember going on a behind the scenes visit with the then Chartered Institute of Transport in the early 90s, and it was dead.  I also have Siobhan Creatons book, but it mainly concerns the Ryanair inolvement, and does not delve into the history of the airport, other than dealing with the purchase and dimembering of Buzz to gain slots at Stansted.  I still contend therefore that Stansted was a scheduled airport,and was available as such, prior to the Foster terminal opening in 1991, albeit at a low demand prior to the lo-co revolution.

Edit :  image of 1981 Air UK timetable cover can be found here :

http://www.timetableimages.com/i-uz/uk8111a.jpg showing airports served.  London Stansted is clearly shown, and none of the other airports shown are really charter destinations.


Edit 2 : Flight Global ; http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1980/1980%20-%201899.html confirms that Air Anglia were operating scheduled services here in 1979, quote :

Quote
Cardiff-based
Air Wales, formed in August 1977,
ceased operations in April 1979, and was
taken over and absorbed into Air Anglia
in June 1979. The resulting extensive
network of scheduled passenger
and
cargo services link 22 airports in Britain
and 11 in Europe. Points served are
Aberdeen, Amsterdam, Basle, Belfast,
Bergen, Birmingham, Blackpool, Bournemouth,
Brussels, Dublin, Dusseldorf,
Edinburgh, Exeter, Glasgow, Guernsey,
Humberside, Isle of Man, Jersey, Leeds/
Bradford, Le Touquet, London/Gatwick,
London / Heathrow, London / Stansted,
Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Ostend,
Paris, Rotterdam, Southampton, Southend,
Stavanger and Teesside

Proof positive that Stansted WAS in use as a scheduled airport prior to 1991.


Regards

MD
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 11:41:21 AM by MidlandDeltic »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2011, 04:44:25 PM »
Cheers. It's now in Sami's hands to either go back or not on his decision.

I don't have an anti Stansted vendetta I just want what is right, so if opening earlier is so, then so be it.

Admittedly the airport would have had a dramatic facilities, size and demand change when it became the airport we know it to be now circa 1991.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Dan380

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 05:05:47 PM »
Question is, do we have the data for STN before 1991?

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 05:13:55 PM »
Airports don't generally change over the time in AWS, i.e. new terminals or runways being built are not represented. Only things are opening and closing, and demand changes if it becomes the secondary airport (i.e. DFW taking over DAL).
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline MidlandDeltic

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 06:49:18 PM »


I don't have an anti Stansted vendetta I just want what is right, so if opening earlier is so, then so be it.

Nor do I have a pro-one - as stated above.  We both want accuracy  :)

Admittedly the airport would have had a dramatic facilities, size and demand change when it became the airport we know it to be now circa 1991.

Indeed it would, as termnal capacity would have increased signifcantly at the March 1991 opening.

Question is, do we have the data for STN before 1991?

Well it was in DotM2, so presumably Sami had some data.

Regards

MD

Offline alexgv1

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »
Well it was in DotM2, so presumably Sami had some data.

Regards

MD

It would just be the data of the state of the airport in 2009, as that's when the database goes up to. So the data we have is just a "snapshot" of what it was at that point, I believe.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: London Stansted?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2011, 10:07:12 PM »
It would just be the data of the state of the airport in 2009, as that's when the database goes up to. So the data we have is just a "snapshot" of what it was at that point, I believe.

correct!

Sami uses a multiplier based off of data already gathered.   

 

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