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Author Topic: [ok] Beginner's World  (Read 1726 times)

Online JumboShrimp

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[ok] Beginner's World
« on: October 03, 2011, 10:40:15 PM »
I see a lot of players in regular game worlds bankrupting frequently after they get to 2-5 aircraft, once the lease payments kick in, and regular staffing levels take hold.  I think a lot of these players would benefit from spending a lot more time in the Beginner's world.  Maybe Beginner's world should have a restriction of only 1 player per airport, and generally easy environment.

The name should be changed to something that better sounding (Beginner's world does not sound that good), and it should just say Difficulty: Easy.  Maybe the "Air Travel Boom" name could make a come-back and be the new Easy level.

Other worlds should have: Moderate or Hard, with most of the limitations removed, and parameters set to harder levels.

I think AWS would benefit, as players would gradually learn and graduate to harder worlds as they master easier worlds.  It will lead to less frustration, and hopefully, ever expanding player base.

I don't think anybody is benefiting in current set up.  New players start a regular game, are not ready for it, and they can't go back to the Beginner level.  Regular games (that should be Moderate or Hard) take on measures to make it easier for the Beginners to survive.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:35:43 PM by sami »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 07:58:14 PM »
I just looked at MT5, and of ~460 airlines, ~230 have less than 10 aircraft.  While a few of these are players starting late, my guess a majority would benefit from an "Easy" scenario, they could play over and over, until they are ready for more challenging scenarios.

But as is, since these players are already in non-beginner scenario, they can't go back to easier scenarios.

At the same time, there are airlines in MT5 that have maxed out on the 100 aircraft limit, and midway through the game, they can't really do anything new anymore, just let the game run, purchase some aircraft...

It would be a lot more fun if the larger airlines could more effectively compete with each other.  But the 100 aircraft limit protects the incumbents from more competition...

alexbieniek

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 09:55:49 PM »
+1 to air travel boom

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 11:11:31 PM »
Honestly I think there's a general problem.

Many people simply don't invest time for AirwaySim - that means choosing airport and aircraft as well as routes properly. And they don't read the forum, the FAQs and so on. They simply don't learn from their fails.

"Lack of skill" is a bad term used in every multiplayer game. It has a very bad reputation but at the end of the day it's the hard truth.


I really like your ideas but they are only minor changes. It reminds me when Blizzard changed the difficult system of World of Warcraft. It went much easier and still the Casuals (a not so bad name for the Unskilled and Newbies) weren't able to kill every boss.


Lots of people simply expect to join a game and be good or at least above average. Some may try several times, mostly if it's such a good game without real alternatives like AirwaySim. But if they fail again and again they leave.


However, there are also some players who join the game, invest time, and run successful airlines from start. But it's not possible to get everybody on this skill level, mostly because that means people have to take care of their skill by themselves - at the end the same problem why there are not 6.8 Billion soccer superstars or University graduates around.


There was once the idea (mostly before I wrote my FAQ) for a mentoring system. Good players take care of a bunch of Newbies, sharing some strategies but mostly help during the gameworlds. The idea wasn't followed because most people ask for help but won't be helped.
I receive lots of PM from people who want help and I always answer as good as I can. Only a small amount of people follow these advices and really benefit from it, the others are still at the bottom and fail again and again (I remember the famous bogglie14 threads as a good example: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,31531.0.html ).


That leads to another problem. It's not only about the newbies. Take a look at Jet Age. 95% or more people using CV-240 as their (only) starting aircraft are unskilled, run (below) average airlines etc. A lot of 'old' and 'well known' players are part of these 95%.
I can understand some people (quote from a PM) "Just want to play from day to day this time" but it's still a stupid choice in nearly every case.


Maybe the post is a bit confused, I'm really sick (literally :/) and had to pause several times, but one thing at last;
The problem with lots of unskilled people, (below) average airlines and newbies without any interest affects even the really good guys. I know lots of extremely skilled people who simply lost interest because there's no enemy, no fighting.
I was very happy when I saw Iksu sharing base with me in Atlanta but I got disappointed. Same for ORD in Jet Age now. In DotM I stopped playing my airline 4.5 years into the gameworld, it's on autopilot till then and with 70 billion value 2x bigger than the second biggest airline. That's a joke.
There's no fun in Newbie-Bashing. It wasn't fun in Quake, it wasn't fun in Counter-Strike, it wasn't fun in World of Warcraft and lots of other games and it isn't fun in AirwaySim.

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 11:39:55 PM »
Curse,

Well, that is one reason why I think there should some Easy difficulty level game worlds.

There is some skill that is needed in order to even get started (to get to some 10 aircraft), and be at a profit level when lease payments kick in.  Probably half the players in regular difficulty games don't get to this point and beyond.

Why not create the game worlds for these players, where profits are easier to achieve, where competition is almost non-existent (1 player per airport).  The players may be playing almost a different game (almst a solitaire AWS).  But this could be dome with the existing AWS engine, just setting some parameters differently.

For AWS to grow in complexity, and grow in general, the player base needs to keep expanding, revenue needs to keep growing.  With growing revenue, more resources could be invested into more realism, more complexity (connecting pax etc).  Creating AWS for casual players (with Easy difficulty level), a lot more people will stay with AWS, keep playing, and maybe after a couple of easy games, they may be ready for cutthroat competition.

To support my point, I gathered some stats here:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,34106.msg183600.html#msg183600

This is for MT5, about 1/2 way through the game.
Top 1 airline = Bottom 198 airlines combined
Top 2 airines = Bottom 254 airlines combined
Top 3 airines = Bottom 280 airlines combined

of total of 429 airlines.

So there are some 200+ airlines that did not get beyond 10 aircraft, and are probably frustrated, their airlines are stagnant or losing money.

Goal of every game (including AWS) is to get as many players playing as possible, and to deliver "fun" for all of them while playing.  Half of the players could have a lot more fun if the were in the right game environment for them.

And if there are scenarios dedicated to new and casual players, the regular scenarios would not have to be bogged down with rules and limits that make it easier for new players to survive.

Offline Sami

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 07:16:47 PM »
I would actually like to rethink the whole beginner world concept. As it creates too much unnecessary work at this end.

You see, the rule is "one account per person" and also that after you have gained certain play experience (play time) you are not allowed to join the BW anymore. Now, the problem is that every time a new BW starts there are always some individuals who seem to wish to press their luck and create a second (new) account in order to participate to the BW (when their original account is not allowed to join anymore).

Well, this leads to lost time from me, as I have to monitor these rule-breakers, and then (according to the Terms) ban them, have them contact us (or v.v.) and explain what they have done, and combine the accounts. And this pattern happens on every BW start for at least 5+ players. Regardless if it's clearly mentioned in the news, registration page etc.


So I would be in favor of removing the beginner worlds alltogether and making some other concept to ease the transition of new players from Demo to full worlds.

But it would then need some other small helps to be made available for the new entrants .. I could warm to this idea for example:  http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,38388.0.html

Or alternative solution is to open BW scenarios for everyone, and focus on improving the scenario's "rating" (easy/med/hard) as described above.

Something in this way (medium baseline, example values given to Medium difficulty world, for a modern age scenario):
EasyMedHard
Start Capital+100%$7mil-50%
Initial loan (% of start capital)25%50%80%
Max airlines based per airport26No limit
Max players (all world apts)300500650
Slot number coefficient+50%--20%
Airplane production rate coefficient+20%--10%
Global pax demand coefficient+10%--10%
Fuel pricing"easy""med""high"
(most of these are customizable already by the game settings)


However this has another issue - if we are moving towards the long game worlds, there would be ideally 4 full game worlds running in parallel, one in early era, one in jet age era, one in dotm era and one in modern era. If we add the 3 difficulty ratings into it, we'd need to increase the game numbers rather much and this would lead to overall lower player numbers per world and would then be problematic to the "hard" world for example ... And perhaps "hard" will be discouraging too .. Leave it to easy and medium ratings?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 11:02:29 PM by sami »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 03:24:33 AM »
re: Replacement for Beginners world

If the Beginners world stays, I would leave it open to anyone, but short (3-5 years).  Just enough time to learn and experiment, not enough time to really build an a big airine.  Just to learn how to.  1 or 2 airlines per airport are fine, but within the short time frame, most airports would never be maxed out as far as supply meeting demand.  The objective would be to let the players play, experiment, but they would be expected to (not forced to) graduate to full game worlds.  One game era repeating over and over would be fine.  With short time span, a new one would start once every real world month.

re: New player protection

All online gmes I tried have some form of this, and for a good reason.  The online game comanies don't want new players to be blown up insantly and leave frustrated as a result.  And it would be useful even in the hardest game worlds.  No matter how good the player is, all it takes for the incumbent is to chane 3 to 5 routes and drive the new airline out of business within first few months of play.  In the longer game worlds where many players would be joining in the middle of the game, this system would be especially helpful.

re: Scenario ratings

Most variables look good, except I might disagree with the slot variable.  I think "Hard" scenarios should be geared to more competition among airlines, more competing flights on routes, lower LFs.  Lack of slots reduces competition, rather than increasing it.  More slots = more competition = harder game...

In "Long" and "Hard" ( ;) ) scenario, I would remove the basing limitations. so that an airline can join 10-15 years into the game in Omaha (that is not saturated) and still take over ATL by opening an unlimited base there.

As far as the number of game combinations, I would leave the "Easy" for an open to anyone, short Beginner Scenario replacement, and full length games would be Medium and Hard, and you can just alternate the starts (Medium, Hard, Medium etc).  Hopefully with ~6 ongoing games so that there would always be a choice of the game to join with open game slots.

Right now to a customer (player) coming to shop (play AWS) the store shelves look something like a picture below.  JA is full, DOTM has only few years left, MT may only have some hard to digest sausages left.  I think the supply of the games needs to increase.  I think there is demand for more games.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:29:51 AM by JumboShrimp »

brique

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 08:16:52 PM »
Bumping this a bit as it interested me, as a new player.

started my first beginners world, but a bit peeved as its pretty full up already, all the prime locations grabbed, the top airlines running 400 AC, etc, so its scrapping hard for pax from day1 : it still has a month (RL) to run, so next BW is also a month (RL) away and didn't fancy the wait : still, its a learning experience... yep.

So, I do like the idea of a much shorter BW scenario with more regular 'resets', a limit on ac or airlines based in a port is also a nice idea, after all, if you can get to 400+ ac is BW really the place for such an obviously skillful player?

I reckon BW should be where you learn, fail, then learn to fail better before going on to harder, longer scenarios, cos the jump from the demo scenario to mid-scenario BW is a steep curve, but having to wait for a new BW start is maybe too much as well?

libertyairlines

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 10:37:27 PM »
I think that a player shouldn't be able to join the beginners world after they are able to grow their airline to a certain level on some sort of scale, possibly over other players. For example, the top airline in the beginners world is over $25 billion dollars in value over second place who is than only $5 billion dollars over third and from there it becomes closer in value.

Offline Sami

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 09:47:53 PM »
Any further brainstorming on this matter, before I set up working with next Beginner world?

As mentioned I find it rather frustrating that always when BW starts people try to bend the rules and create second accounts in order to be able to participate. Well this is easy to spot and leads to bans, refunds, account merges etc, which is unnecessary time and work spent. So some more elegant solution would be preferrable.


Reading the thread, perhaps the idea of 1-1,5 month long Beginner Scenario that is open to everyone could be the easiest answer. Just remove the account restriction there (all can join), then it removes the multi-account problems. If I can manage the world to auto-reset itself always when it has ended, it would be even less work. And I think alliances could be disabled all together for that game world too.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 09:53:22 PM by sami »

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 10:36:41 PM »
Reading the thread, perhaps the idea of 1-1,5 month long Beginner Scenario that is open to everyone could be the easiest answer. Just remove the account restriction there (all can join), then it removes the multi-account problems. If I can manage the world to auto-reset itself always when it has ended, it would be even less work. And I think alliances could be disabled all together for that game world too.

That sounds good.  If the game is in MT era, let's 2010-2015, the demand is quite high, airport slots should be plentiful, and you can then allow a lot of player slots (700), so that there is no shortage of player slots.

If the restriction on veteran players is removed, I think the demand will be quite high...

And since the game world be short, there would not be a lot of competition.  The game world will barely fill in all of the world's demand in that short time...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 10:42:00 PM by JumboShrimp »

Talentz

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 03:59:36 AM »
Reading the thread, perhaps the idea of 1-1,5 month long Beginner Scenario that is open to everyone could be the easiest answer. Just remove the account restriction there (all can join), then it removes the multi-account problems. If I can manage the world to auto-reset itself always when it has ended, it would be even less work. And I think alliances could be disabled all together for that game world too.

Heh, I wonder... what gave you the idea to ban alliances?

That sounds good.  If the game is in MT era, let's 2010-2015, the demand is quite high, airport slots should be plentiful, and you can then allow a lot of player slots (700), so that there is no shortage of player slots.

If the restriction on veteran players is removed, I think the demand will be quite high...

And since the game world be short, there would not be a lot of competition.  The game world will barely fill in all of the world's demand in that short time...

I agree. Shorter game worlds perhaps 1 month long, 25min days(?) with the above mentioned would be a good first step.

Also, further brain storming would be needed. Not that I have really thought about it, other then implementing the recommendations that Sanabas has laid out in his mentor feature request thread. http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,41933.0.html

I would like to see the mentor feature improved further before chopping up the BW theme and rebuilding it.

Talentz

Offline Sami

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2013, 09:17:07 AM »
Heh, I wonder... what gave you the idea to ban alliances?

If the game is only 1 month long, then the alliances are too much of a hassle really.. For both players and admin.

Lavo

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Re: Beginner's World
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 09:34:15 AM »
Is there any merit to the idea that if you have much shorter beginners world games, you could have two entries? if you had two beginners worlds running 50% out of phase, and had two "tokens" to enter, at some stage, you're going to have had a crack at the first game, and then come back to the second game with a few new things to try out.

more or less been said above, but worth refining.

Offline Sami

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 12:41:02 PM »
Just thinking of the naming convention for these... Beginner World may not be appropriate for them anymore?

Offline Jona L.

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 03:28:44 PM »
Just thinking of the naming convention for these... Beginner World may not be appropriate for them anymore?

Testing Server?!

Talentz

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 05:58:04 PM »
Just thinking of the naming convention for these... Beginner World may not be appropriate for them anymore?


"Welcome to AWS: Flight Test Program"

You've played the demo and are ready for the next step, but now what? Suit up and step into AWS's Flight Test Program. The scenario is open to both new and experience players alike!

This gameworld is short and to the point. Expect to find competition and settings to near-levels of what you would find in full gameworld. The purpose is to give the test pilot the ability to experiment, analyze and execute new strategies or simply be testing waters for that next Mega-Airline.

Everyone falls short in AWS at the start. (some, many times over!) The Flight Test Program provides the framework to gradually ease players into full worlds where competition is tense and often unforgiving. By providing a short and simple beginner's world like setting, the player can build there AWS know-how and skills to prepare themselves for the "big one".

The tower has just cleared you for take-off on Rwy 24. Throttle up and select join now to start!

----
Dunno, sounds exciting right?


Talentz




Offline Sami

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 09:48:45 PM »
"Sandbox" was suggested in FB?  Perhaps that gives a hint of something that is too easy (which this isn't). Any other ideas?

Online JumboShrimp

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 10:10:39 PM »
"Sandbox" was suggested in FB?  Perhaps that gives a hint of something that is too easy (which this isn't). Any other ideas?

I think Beginners World name should still work.  It is easy to understand, from the game world name, without need to read full details...

Offline alexgv1

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Re: [ok] Beginner's World
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 10:16:31 PM »
Yeah I don't see any harm in keeping it as "Beginners World". Doesn't run the risk of rebranding and confusing things. Does exactly what it says on the tin for the new players, and the old players will already know. As long as the new entry requirements are made clear to them.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

 

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