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Author Topic: Almost impossible to start the game  (Read 5379 times)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2011, 10:11:46 PM »
I moved away from this sim for more than a year, but decided to come back to it for a little management fun.  Well, what was said earlier has pretty much been the case with me.  I came in at the middle to late in MT#5, and no matter what I tried I lost money.  I tried all the tips and tricks, read the FAQs, read up on the forums, but no luck.  I tried small planes, large planes, under- or un-utilized markets, non-competing routes, single routes, multiple routes, high-cost/high access marketing, low-cost/minor access marketing...  It really seems that, unless you get into a game right near the beginning, there's no way to make enough money to grow.

And after a while, even as route image gets to the point where you're getting some reasonable returns, and as you limp along breaking even, one of the established airlines comes in putting 3x capacity on your routes (check out KMCI-KMSP for example) which cuts your load factors by 1/3 to 1/2 (even with 100 route image), leaving you with a smouldering heap of airline that's $5m in the red.

Five attempts, five BK's, and all the help and tips couldn't make a late-in-the-game entrant viable, let alone profitable. 

Depends how late in the game.  If you miss the beginning, the next 3-5 years are very challenging, because of lack of aircraft.

Later in the game, there are some bankruptcies, and some airports open up.  You have to pick your starting airport carefully.

What makes MT5 (for example) more challenging this late in the game is that the fuel prices have been lower than in the past in comparable games, which means there are fewer bankruptcies, and fewer airports open up.

But there will be new DOTM game soon, so if you feel like waiting a little more, that's your next opportunity to start in a brand new game world.

bigdogshark62

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 12:41:56 AM »
That would make sense, but the lack of bankruptcy should not have an effect if I'm the only airline based there, and flying routes that are uncontested.  My biggest issue was that I could only make enough profit to sustain, but not grow.  My base airport was a 4, and I flew two uncontested routes.  Of course, the game is set up that you start slowly (which isn't ALWAYS the case, especially if it's a high profile route that no one else is flying).  But even once route image reaches 100 and loads reach near capacity, the profit wasn't enough to create growth.

I have this urge to try again, but I don't want to waste my credits AGAIN if I'm not going to at least be able to compete.  I may just wait until the next DOTM.  We'll see how impatient I get...  ;)

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2011, 12:45:55 AM »
What aircraft were yoU flying? Weren't they CRJs? Things like that effect too.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2011, 01:18:07 AM »
That would make sense, but the lack of bankruptcy should not have an effect if I'm the only airline based there, and flying routes that are uncontested.  My biggest issue was that I could only make enough profit to sustain, but not grow.  My base airport was a 4, and I flew two uncontested routes.  Of course, the game is set up that you start slowly (which isn't ALWAYS the case, especially if it's a high profile route that no one else is flying).  But even once route image reaches 100 and loads reach near capacity, the profit wasn't enough to create growth.

I have this urge to try again, but I don't want to waste my credits AGAIN if I'm not going to at least be able to compete.  I may just wait until the next DOTM.  We'll see how impatient I get...  ;)

You may want to get one more practice start before you start a new game, so that you figure out what you may be doing wrong.

As Alex said, choice of aircraft makes a big difference.

Also, your fleet utilization.  Meaning how many hours per day your aircraft is productively flying.  You can look where you stand on that particular stat, and you can compare yourself to others.  You need to be at 14 h or higher to do well.

vitongwangki

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2011, 02:51:58 AM »
That would make sense, but the lack of bankruptcy should not have an effect if I'm the only airline based there, and flying routes that are uncontested.  My biggest issue was that I could only make enough profit to sustain, but not grow.  My base airport was a 4, and I flew two uncontested routes.  Of course, the game is set up that you start slowly (which isn't ALWAYS the case, especially if it's a high profile route that no one else is flying).  But even once route image reaches 100 and loads reach near capacity, the profit wasn't enough to create growth.

I have this urge to try again, but I don't want to waste my credits AGAIN if I'm not going to at least be able to compete.  I may just wait until the next DOTM.  We'll see how impatient I get...  ;)
I recommend you seeking help from big airlines, which could provide cheap planes for your start. (Look into the market, see who has some aircraft idle ;))

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2011, 03:33:38 AM »
I also reccommend that you try starting somewhere bigger.

A size 4 airport (with a few exceptions) generally won't have enough demand.
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bigdogshark62

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2011, 05:21:53 AM »
Practice start?  Have things tweaked THAT much in the last year?  I used to be part of the Star Alliance in several games a year ago.  I was in Worldlink for a while, too.  I was even in Royal Singha for a while.  But like I said, that was over a year ago. 

I've run relatively profitable and successful airlines out of size 4 airports before, and even made all the way through a game in St Petersburg KPIE, which is at most a level 3.  So it CAN be done (or at least it USED to be done).  I guess I need to change with the times, don't I...    ???

I was using E190s, with at least 17H or more of utilization (about the only downtime I had during the week was the A check).  I had an underutilized route running to KMDW, and another unflown route running at first to KEWR (which was a losing proposition because it was too far away to run more than twice a day), and then switched to KMSP (which was fine until a couple established airlines decided to have a turf war right on top of me by tripling the capacity).  Even as my LF dwindled, the routes were STILL profitable, but not enough money coming in to grow.  And then one C check hit, and I'm in the red.  Since I'm not growing, the red stayed red. 

Anyway, all the bigger spots are still being well serviced by established carriers that would just squish me out of existence, and I still have this misguided notion that a small airline can survive in a 4 market.  I mean my plan was to start small, and then grow my way to a 2nd hub in a larger market when THEN I can start flying internationally (not much international demand from my little market, which BTW has been a hub for a few RL airlines). 

Appreciate the suggestions, though.  I'll have to take a look at all those things and see if I can't adjust my tactics to the new sim.  Thanks y'all!

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2011, 07:37:22 AM »
I can give you one piece of advice: Flying 4x737 vs. 10xQ400 (to Chicago Midway) is going to be a losing proposition.  I would schedule them to a different route ASAP.  There have to be some destinations not flown by anybody...

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2011, 07:57:51 AM »
Running small capacity planes with fuel as high as it is now is not going to give you the opportunity to expand.

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bigdogshark62

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2011, 01:57:43 AM »
I can give you one piece of advice: Flying 4x737 vs. 10xQ400 (to Chicago Midway) is going to be a losing proposition.  I would schedule them to a different route ASAP.  There have to be some destinations not flown by anybody...

I wish...  But while there are a few unserved destinations, they're all about 1,000nm away so I can't really get enough frequency out there.  All the other routes of reasonable distance are oversupplied by established carriers.  My original routes were KMDW and KMSP.  At the time, my competition was running only one Q400 to KMDW.  Once I started up, he dumped 10 flights in there.  KMSP was uncontested, and then two established carriers came in and dumped triple capacity on there and I was toast.  I'm probably still toast, but I'm going to keep plugging away.  If I burn up my credits, I burn them.  And then I'll take another couple years off.  It's a simulation, after all, and it's supposed to be fun.  There's nothing at stake except pride in this (and what better way to learn than just try and fail, try and fail, try and fail; you learn more from failure than you do from instant success). 

Might try next time from Orlando again.  Or back to St Pete/Clearwater.  We'll see. 

(BTW, my MDW flights have the highest yield and bring the highest profit.  Drop those, and I may as well just go BK and try again...)

bigdogshark62

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2011, 01:36:09 PM »
But just so ya know, I'm trying your advice and moved away from MDW.  We'll see how it plays out.   8)

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2011, 02:07:31 PM »
But just so ya know, I'm trying your advice and moved away from MDW.  We'll see how it plays out.   8)

Good luck, I think you will find some uncontested routes...
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 05:07:55 PM »
I wish...  But while there are a few unserved destinations, they're all about 1,000nm away so I can't really get enough frequency out there.

If the destination is not served, you don't need to care about frequency.  If you have demand for 150, and you have a/c that supplies 150, 1x day is just fine.

And if you have a reasonably fuel efficient aircraft, you don't care how far you are flying, they will always make money on uncontested routes...

AmpliFLY

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2011, 08:02:03 PM »
I think the logical progression of the game would be that once one game world past, say 1/3 or 1/2 point of the game, a new scenario of the same era would be started, and all the restriction and limitations would be lifted.

This way, the bottom 250 airlines that have less than 10 aircraft would get a fresh start, in a new world, and the top 200 airlines would fight it out without any artificial restrictions built in (basing restriction, restrictions on delivery rate of the aircraft etc)...

So the remaining airlines would face real competition in the 2nd half of the game, and players who did not do well could start in a new game world, where everybody starts equal.

For example, MT5 is past the half way point.  My airline supplies perhaps 95+% of the routes at ORD.  I get new airlines starting there every once in a while.  These new airlines are pretty much doomed.  If they survive against all odds, they will at best struggle, their profit potential is extremely limited.

At this point, there should be an MT6, in my opinion...  It is great when we have 500-600 players when the game world starts, but it is also ok if there are only 200-300 left in the 2nd half of the game world...  I think it would be a win-win.  Players would get a fresh start more often, AWS would make more money.

And if the training wheels were taken off the games in 2nd half of the game, the survivorving players would have a new game on their hands, with serious competition between the airlines.




I stupidly started my airline at KORD instead of doing a little research.   Please take it easy on me I'm doing this for a class assignment!  I don't know if you increased the supply on my routes but now my load levels are way down.  Mercy!  I beg of thee!

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2011, 11:51:41 PM »
I stupidly started my airline at KORD instead of doing a little research.   Please take it easy on me I'm doing this for a class assignment!  I don't know if you increased the supply on my routes but now my load levels are way down.  Mercy!  I beg of thee!

If you are studying a chapter on bankruptcy, you have come to the right place  ;)

When it comes to ORD, I think about 95 to 98% of demand is already served, so the chances of finding a profitable niche are extremely slim.

AmpliFLY

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2011, 02:22:00 AM »
If you are studying a chapter on bankruptcy, you have come to the right place  ;)

When it comes to ORD, I think about 95 to 98% of demand is already served, so the chances of finding a profitable niche are extremely slim.


Before you start targeting my routes you might want to re-read the rules section.  I don't think Sami likes it when big airlines gang up on the small guy.   

Online ZombieSlayer

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2011, 02:53:28 AM »

Before you start targeting my routes you might want to re-read the rules section.  I don't think Sami likes it when big airlines gang up on the small guy.   

Before you start calling out Jumbo, maybe you should re-read the post. All he is saying is nearly all the demand is served so you will have a very hard time finding unserved demand and turning a profit.
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2011, 03:06:09 AM »

Before you start targeting my routes you might want to re-read the rules section.  I don't think Sami likes it when big airlines gang up on the small guy.   

My post was meant to be a joke, and advice at the same time.  Last thing I want to do is to discourage a new player.  But the 7 aircraft I just scheduled (flying some of the routes that you are flying) has been sitting on tarmac (without schedule) for well over 1 year.  And just because there is a new player at my airport, I am not going to leave it sitting on the tarmac forever.

The advice meant to be: you are not going to be happy at ORD.  The subject of the thread is "Almost impossible to start the game", which is not entirely true.  There are airports where other airlines have bankrupted (Russia is wide open), just one example.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting over at a more hospitable place.

But it IS almost impossible to start at ORD at this point.  The number of under-served routes is dwindling to nothing.  Which means you have to fly against a player with CI of 100 and RI of 100 on every single route.

As far as "targetting", I am flying nearly 100% of the routes from ORD, serving all of them the same way.  How is one out of 421 (that I serve) targetting when it is supplied the same way as the other 420 that I serve?

Online ZombieSlayer

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Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2011, 03:32:08 AM »
Russia would be good. Another empty nation is Ecuador. You won't build a mega airline from UIO or GYE, but you can make a profit. Get E-jets-they can make it to the southern US, Mexico, and most of South America and in a lot of cases you will have a size advantage and will be able to win enough passengers to maintain profitability and grow.

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: Almost impossible to start the game
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2011, 03:41:43 AM »
Mine too, sounds good. Maybe another limit would be if you were in MT5 you could not be in MT6 at the same time. It would stop the airlines that are already massive in MT5 to open in MT6 and have the same game plan.
Agreed!

 

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