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Online Airline Management Simulation
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Author Topic: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?  (Read 1786 times)

Offline swiftus27

  • Members
  • Posts: 4395
Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« on: August 21, 2011, 01:55:50 AM »
Concerning this being the first time that Sami uses 1.3, is anyone seeing any real success flying routes greater that 6000nm?   Without owning your aircraft, is it even worth flying these routes? 

There are many threads, including some of my own, that all point to this.  I am just curious what you think.

zilchster

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 02:19:41 AM »
Regrettably, ULH is non-profitable anymore.

I was running Boeing 737s and when I added 2 ULH routes more than 6000, my profits nosedived immediately.

This was exacerbated when fuel prices escalated to about US$700 plus.

Anything more than US$800, I bet most airlines who operate ULH only would go bankrupt.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

  • Members
  • Posts: 4028
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 03:19:40 AM »
There are many threads, including some of my own, that all point to this.  I am just curious what you think.

I think you were the guy who talked to sami to lower the long-haul profit many times and further I think you are the last person on this planet who should open such a thread.

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33520.msg176192.html#msg176192
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,33520.msg176197.html#msg176197



vitongwangki

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 03:37:23 AM »
Thanks to Swiftus, you make me struggle a lot  ;) (and my competitors too ::))

Ansettaddict123

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 05:21:57 AM »
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Info/Airline/71/#

Take a look at me and then try and tell me ULH is dead  ;) 

I can assure you its not, It's alive and well  :laugh:

kone_alta

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 09:12:44 AM »
Thank you swiftus, you made me feel like begging when I play this game  ;)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 09:25:31 AM »
Thank you swiftus, you made me feel like begging when I play this game  ;)

Sorry about that.

Also, I bankrupted myself out of this game trying to go ULH. 

For the record, I asked for there to be less net income from LH routes due to the extreme unbalance versus domestic flying. BUT, since other factors were also changed, it became broken in 1.3.   Without data from prior games, I simply can't compare to see what all changed.

I had 777 ers flying 5000-6000nm routes and they almost all lost money or barely covered their fixed costs. 

stefan.aj@hotmail.com

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 11:06:41 AM »
Im running ULH 6000NM+ from my hub in Manila, making BIG bucks. Using rather old 744s, but on the other hand competition is not to bad. The only "problem" is that it looks like if i fly to a destination (only) daily, i dont get the seats filled, regardless of demand.

I think AWS 1.3 reflects the real world better than earlier versions. No airlines in the real world can make money on long haul or ultra long haul with load factors under 80%. And it looks like a lot of you complaining fly on routes with heavy competition, and are facing low load factors. 

GDK

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 11:09:14 AM »
http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Info/Airline/71/#

Take a look at me and then try and tell me ULH is dead  ;) 

I can assure you its not, It's alive and well  :laugh:

You are operating almost 100 money printer A320s and you have around 20 really ULH routes.
The folks are talking about routes beyond 6k nm and mainly whining about the problem of using B777 on them.
All your LH routes are flying with B767 and that plane is still making good profit in the game.

Ansettaddict123

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 03:10:28 PM »
You are operating almost 100 money printer A320s and you have around 20 really ULH routes.
The folks are talking about routes beyond 6k nm and mainly whining about the problem of using B777 on them.
All your LH routes are flying with B767 and that plane is still making good profit in the game.

Im sorry, but the 9300 NM I operate to SIN isnt ULH?
And neither are the array of ~7000NM routes into the Asia Pacific I operate (AKL, MEL, SYD, NRT) etc?

If ULH was 'broken' I wouldn't be operating these routes because they wouldnt be making me any money. Yet funnily enough they are making me money.

The theory of building an airline entirely on ULH however is just stupid, it simply cannot be done when fuel gets up.
As you rightfully pointed out I have a sizeable A320 fleet which adds to revenues and helps support the LH division.  A sizeable short haul fleet and then a long haul division to complement works perfectly.

With your point about aircraft, yes theyre all 767. however, i can still fly them profitably cant i? its all a strategy. If you try and play with any 772 aircraft youre stuffed, particularly if its under ~5000NM on which the A333 and B764 can operate and win on frequency and economics. The 773 is slightly better but only with minimal competition and over LONG routes.

Simply put, ULH isnt profitable at all- thats the reality.
It can only succeed in a very special set of circumstances.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 03:34:10 PM »
Simply put, ULH isnt profitable at all- thats the reality.
It can only succeed in a very special set of circumstances.


great point.

stefan.aj@hotmail.com

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 08:34:35 PM »
Take a look at real life, how many ultra long haul routes are flown by the big airlines? And how many of those airlines providing ultra long haul capacity are making big bucks?

Ansettaddict123

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 04:55:06 AM »
Take a look at real life, how many ultra long haul routes are flown by the big airlines? And how many of those airlines providing ultra long haul capacity are making big bucks?


+1

The game should mirror reality, not have us play in some sort of construction of it.

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2011, 05:15:08 AM »
+1

The game should mirror reality, not have us play in some sort of construction of it.

In principle I agree, unfortunately however, that is also a double edged sword.  There are many real life aspects that, if applied to this "game" would also make it unplayable.

Finding a balance is important and, for the purposes of entertainment, I think it should be possible to succeed at all levels of this game/simulation.  For starters, I would like to see players choose a type of model at the start of the game, ......  from small (domestic) airline to medium (regional) airline to large (global) airline with each category having some restrictions being applied in the form of route distance, max seats per aircraft or any other criteria.  Once successful, the player could get to migrate to a new scenario and their old airline could AI for a few months to slowly unwind the operation.

This kind of setup would effectively create multiple "games" inside the scenario and offer more for the players......

Anyway, just my 2c

Regards

Richard



castelino009

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2011, 08:10:50 AM »
+1

The game should mirror reality, not have us play in some sort of construction of it.

Then lets leave our jobs and sit in front of the computer play AWS- ask social benefits every time our airline goes bankrupt.

This is a game my friend, Sami is trying to make it as close to reality but not really. We have to enjoy it as a game, have fun & not struggle- if we do then there is no difference  between and a game and real life.


cheers


Zabuti

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2011, 01:06:32 PM »
Take a look at real life, how many ultra long haul routes are flown by the big airlines? And how many of those airlines providing ultra long haul capacity are making big bucks?


They manage it anyway !

Take the 2 longest routes currently flown (SIN/JFK and SIN/LAX). This is SIngapore Airlines flights, performed by A345. ANd They maintain the routes, which means they make enough profit on it by attracting customers on one of these two hubs (JFK/LAX) and rerouting them after.

So, IMHO, Ultra long haul can be pretty efficient when you use it with connecting flights in reality.

Kind regards

Flobacca

Offline Sigma

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  • Posts: 1920
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2011, 01:19:17 PM »
They manage it anyway !

Take the 2 longest routes currently flown (SIN/JFK and SIN/LAX). This is SIngapore Airlines flights, performed by A345. ANd They maintain the routes, which means they make enough profit on it by attracting customers on one of these two hubs (JFK/LAX) and rerouting them after.

So, IMHO, Ultra long haul can be pretty efficient when you use it with connecting flights in reality.

Kind regards

Flobacca

I think, by and large, the whole point of ULH routes in long-haul is so that one doesn't have connecting flights.

But do not assume that simply because an airline is flying a route today that they must be making money on it.

For one, just because an airline operates a route doesn't mean they do so profitably.  Many, many routes, probably most routes, are operated everyday that money is lost on.  If airlines made money on every route or even the majority of the routes they operated they wouldn't be in the black far more often than not.

And secondly, for most airlines they have or do operate ULH, it's a 'halo' route or a loss leader.  They're willing to take a loss simply for the ability to say they operate said route and the associated prestige that goes along with it,  or for the convenience of offering it to loyal customers that fly other routes they do make money on.

And lastly, in real-life airlines can offer premiums for services that we cannot.  In real-life, most ULH routes are flown in aircraft specifically configured with fewer seats and far more Business and First-class who pay a premium not only for the seat but for the non-stop service (in your mentioned SIN-JFK routing, that A345 flies with only 100 seats for example).  This yields fewer passengers, which yields MUCH lower fuel costs (versus ferrying an extra 20 tons across the Pacific), but each passenger pays a much higher fare.  So you're achieving as much, if not more, revenue with lower fuel costs.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:21:55 PM by Sigma »

DenisG

  • Former member
Re: Is Ultra Long Haul dead?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2011, 02:44:51 PM »
I believe we have seen enough evidence that the routes >6,000nm are loosers when operating 340s or 777s; they brought me down despite only having 5 340s of 60 a/c in total. I am setting up those routes in DotM to be able to compare. But generally, we should be able to make money with those planes with 77% LF and no competition! It did not work in MT5 now and brought me down within incredible 6 game weeks when fuel surged above 700USD.

Cheers,
Denis

 

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