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Author Topic: B777 Comparison  (Read 2893 times)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 08:16:17 PM »
It's so easy to throw some random lines ("4 times as much..") out of thin air. If you have some proper improvement suggestions (incl. proper facts) please post them to Feature rq. forum for future consideration & analysis.

What can be said?  You nerfed this plane somehow.  Perhaps much lower leasing costs!

Do SOMETHING to make sure the 757 isnt the transatlantic plane of choice.

ACfly

  • Former member
Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 09:44:34 PM »
It's so easy to throw some random lines ("4 times as much..") out of thin air. If you have some proper improvement suggestions (incl. proper facts) please post them to Feature rq. forum for future consideration & analysis.

When is the cargo option available? Until that option is activated, how about a lower purchase cost?

Offline mark320

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 11:56:30 PM »
It's so easy to throw some random lines ("4 times as much..") out of thin air. If you have some proper improvement suggestions (incl. proper facts) please post them to Feature rq. forum for future consideration & analysis.

With all due respect, i didn't just throw "4 times as much" If you take a look at the following page: http://www.myairlease.com/resources/fleetstatus

It will show you that a B777-300 max monthly lease rate is $0.75M (FEB11) a B777-300ER is $1.6M an A380 $2M
in AWS a B777-300 costs around $3.2M B777-300ER $3.6M and an A380 $4.4M and we are still in 2006 in the game!

Hope it helps!

Offline Sami

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    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 08:19:13 AM »
That site really does not list on where the info is gained, or I am a bit blind. And the lease prices are hugely inconsistent compared to actual values / new selling prices of the models (777 vs ER for example) suggesting that they reference to used planes etc (but the manufacturer discounts are larger too..). But in reality the lease prices to vary quite much based on the economic cycle and plane demand and various factors of which all (economy cycle) are not known in AWS - lease price is always calculated with the same formula based on the selling price making the lease prices more static. And if you sign for short leases for new planes it is bound to be expensive since it poses a large risk for the leasing company..

On a different thing, I am surprised that nobody has raised the point that it is very uncommon and unrealistic for old/global 200+ strong airline fleet to be fully leased. Since this is what was seen here previously but I hope the ownership strategy will be seen as better choice for some fleets.

Offline michael

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 08:51:50 AM »
Isn't there something built into the both the used and new market that drops the price if the demand is not there for the current supply? If so we should get to the point where these planes lease cost will seem profitable if they remain on the used market, or vacant slots on the production line, over a certain period of time.

Offline mark320

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2011, 08:57:37 AM »
The site gives you a range of prices, if you look well into it.
Call it what you want but the lease costs of e.g. an A320 are nothing close to what we are "paying" here. I have a pretty good idea of what my company is paying in real life. I have presented you with a publicly disclosed site, not many people will tell you what their companies are paying without infringing NDAs. You can look up also what "old/global companies with 200+ aircraft" like Air France and SIA, are paying for leasing A380s for example. Because they actually lease most of their aircraft too!
You fail to mention discounts too, do you actually want references to the type of discounts lessors and airlines get too?
The game is fun, and very accurate in most respects and I laud you for it, but there are some aspects that can be fine tuned.

regards,

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2011, 12:45:27 AM »

On a different thing, I am surprised that nobody has raised the point that it is very uncommon and unrealistic for old/global 200+ strong airline fleet to be fully leased. Since this is what was seen here previously but I hope the ownership strategy will be seen as better choice for some fleets.


I believe that is the right direction (to make ownership a more atractive proposition).

I have raised the issue in terms of credit availability for leases.  It is infinite.  An airline with no assets can lease 200+ aircraft, yet, it can borrow only about 5-8 large aircraft worth.

Raising the leasing prices is one way to go (but I have a better suggestion below).  If there are caps for loans to own aircraft (secured) there should be caps for how much aircraft aircraft can lease.

If there is to be no cap on leases, there should be no cap on secured loans.

Another thing to consider is for lease price to be derived using interest rate an airline gets for an unsecured loan.  That would make leases more expensive only to airlines that are less creditworthy.  Airlines would have an incentive to raise their credit ratings, since the lease renewals would depend on it.

Result of this would be less rapid expansion fueled by unsecured borrowing, to fund leases of more aircraft....  More capital accumulation, more owned aircraft...

Offline mark320

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Re: B777 Comparison
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2011, 10:54:03 PM »
I beg to differ, if it weren't for operational (and finance) lease, many airlines would not exist.
The dynamics and reasons for leasing are various within the airline industry. We have the luxury of not having too many "surprises" like pandemics and terrorist attacks which decimate passenger demands. Leasing accounts to about 20% of my operating costs which putting it mildly, is hefty. I can accept no discounts (heck I was even launch customer and not one penny discount!) as in real life but leasing rates are very high. On the other hand yields are too! There has to be a balance, keeping in mind this is a game. In reality, major airlines do actually earn their money on LH and use regional jets as feeders (they loose money). Look at the fuel consumption of a CRJ and an A380! Problem is people insist of flying CRJs on 1000nm flights!
As i described before airlines also sell and lease back aircraft (such as B777 and A380s) which creates an other skill.
Lease costs, in my opinion, must reflect reality as the list prices actually do.

BTW, when returning a leased aircraft, planes are returned in the condition they are lease, therefore with the leased seating and 100%ish condition. This is good idea to keep airlines on their toes in MT6, maybe.

regards,

 

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