AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?  (Read 4523 times)

cht7520

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2011, 05:12:56 AM »
Have you even looked at the market lately. There have been dozens of "good" planes out there daily.

Correct. I've picked up 11 (A319/A340/B777) planes yesterday and 3 (B777) more today. And I haven't been F5ing all day to get those.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2011, 03:37:49 PM »
Have you even looked at the market lately. There have been dozens of "good" planes out there daily.


Now, I do not have anything more to say to this thread since seems that the proper and constructive critisism has gone by the wind and now we're now to more childish level I see.


You're not quite comprehending what I'm saying. It's not about the used market being "ok" or "healthy" today and perhaps tomorrow. It's about consistency, it's kind of absurd that you have to monitor the used marked to be able to get some aircraft.

I already told you that your "fix" to the problem is redundant because the fix is simply a work-around of a much bigger and deeper problem. People are complaining and the very same people are paying customers.

Quite frankly, you should put up with some childish comments, step back and look at what the real problem is here.
It's understandable that things get heated and some comments might be uncalled for.

But any business needs to pay attention to their customers unless they've got a monopoly. In reality the used market problem is something you can solve! The fact still remains, and will remain and people will complain, the used market is simply NOT good enough.

A function such as AC leasing is one of the most pivotal in any airline operation. And if a proper system for leasing either new or used AC is implemented, it would allow a player to change strategies.

Right now, the used market only serves one purpose, and it relies on sitting infront of the computer monitoring the markets continuously. Maybe not so much now, but more so during startup.

Nobody will hate you or blame you if you simply said it can't be done right now. And a proper fix will come further down the road.

But I'm sure that too many players are with me on this one, the game is BORING after it's initial fase. And when players start going bankrupt the for all game worlds, the gameplay becomes stale mid-way.

For realistic comparison, the challenge has always been to operate a more effective airline than your competitor.
In AWS, currently, it's hoarding AC during the initial fase of the game when you're battling 599 other players for AC.



Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5997
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2011, 04:46:39 PM »
Used market is a work in progress, and one of the goals was to equalize the chaces of player who has a lot of time in front of a PC, vs. person who logs in once or twice a day.  There has been some progress, and there may be more tweaks in the future.

But also, look at the new market.  With changes Sami implemented (by allowing production lines to expand) during the years of high demand, A LOT more players now have a chance to place orders for new aircraft.  You now can place an order in just about any production line, and have aircraft start arriving within the time it takes to produce that aircraft.

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2011, 06:15:51 PM »
I agree with Jumboshrimp on this.  The most significant and positive change in v1.3 regarding a/c acquisition is the demand led expansion of the NEW production. Despite the more than 1300 existing orders you can order a A32x right now and get it within months. This tweak is a positive supply/demand adjustment that requires players to think beyond the Used market. It ought to make experienced players change their game play and think about new a/c much earlier, rather than living on the Used market. When that starts to happen then the Used market will be much more like reality -- a stop gap and temporary solution rather than the be all and end all of expansion.

Yes, having 600 airlines start at once is unrealistic, but the 80+ year scenarios being planned (with, I am presuming, player spots increasing over time) will dramatically change that. 

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2011, 04:37:29 AM »
but the 80+ year scenarios being planned (with, I am presuming, player spots increasing over time) will dramatically change that. 

oh boy are you gonna be in for a surprise!
Did you EVER play a game like World of Warcraft?

First of all, playing a simulation game, ANY simulation or management game depends on one thing, familiarity. Let it be football games or airline games. If you can't shop players or aircraft you already know it doesn't make any sense to you. The "worth" to a player flying a Boeing 797 that doesn't exist is next to nothing.
The same way buying a player in a football game that you have no knowledge of (read: re-gen).

You all dream up this 100+ year scenario as if this was the salvation of things. Since when did a proper acquisition system for AC STOP being relevant??????? Can you PLEASE elaborate on that and help my less educated mind fathom that? 

As a courtesy to Sami I'm not going to name competitors, but I've checked out some of them. To be fair, and honest, this game is still the best "simulation" so far. But there is still a lot to learn from the others. AC acquisition has a LONG way to go in AWS. AS it's borderline ancient and one of the main things people will stop playing this game. Not because you can or can not get AC. But because the process of getting these AC is too comprehensive.

Getting AC should be SIMPLE! as it is in the real world!!! If you got the money, all it takes is a phonecall to any leasing agency or a broker. Tell em you need such and such AC and this is what you are willing to pay.

You can call me an idiot, but that's just simple facts!

I've been long enough in the airline biz to know what's real(istic) and what's not.

If you all strive for realism, then allow all players to BID for AC. That's the way it REALLY works!

cht7520

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2011, 04:43:23 AM »
Some sims I've played on you can have 200 B747s A330s on order in only a few RL days and get them almost straight away. By that time you will either get bored, or you would have no time to schedule all those aircraft and give up (like me). So it's not so simple.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2011, 04:44:38 AM »
And quite frankly, I'm a paying customer. I'm allowed to voice my opinion. If you don't want my money, I'll take it somewhere else.
I just don't think the game is advanced enough to be viewed as a "Simulator" nor is it arcade enough to be called a "fun game to play".

Just to pull an example out of my ass, 100 AC that used to belong to US Air and Delta sat on the tarmac at MYR in SC, barely for one summer because when august hit most AC were already leased out. Just to point out one of the most idiotic flaws with the used AC market.
Any leasing company that owns the 50 or 500+ AC leases will scramble to lease out those AC as FAST AS POSSIBLE! in AWS? No, they go out on some storage period. If you really wanna up the F5 game, just put those AC out there right away!

This entire thing is laughable. And the fact that Sami ignores it all just shows that he believes he's right, and many of you people are wrong.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2011, 04:46:07 AM »
Some sims I've played on you can have 200 B747s A330s on order in only a few RL days and get them almost straight away. By that time you will either get bored, or you would have no time to schedule all those aircraft and give up (like me). So it's not so simple.

Any sim where you can have 200 AC ordered in one game is not a SIM! it's barely an arcade game.
You're comparing apples to oranges here dude....

Offline JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5997
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2011, 04:56:22 AM »
Any leasing company that owns the 50 or 500+ AC leases will scramble to lease out those AC as FAST AS POSSIBLE! in AWS? No, they go out on some storage period. If you really wanna up the F5 game, just put those AC out there right away!

Just for a second, suppose it happened.  Suppose all aircraft in storage would show up on used aircraft market as once.  In 1 game days, all the aircraft would be sold.  Then what?  Suppose you start (re-start) tomorrow.  Where are you going to get aircraft if the storage is completely empty, and all that's left is Antonov and Yak.

This entire thing is laughable. And the fact that Sami ignores it all just shows that he believes he's right, and many of you people are wrong.

Sami pays attention to reasonable comments and requests.  If you have an idea about improving a part of the game, give it a thought so that you can formulate it clearly, and post it in the feature requests.  Majority of new features in the game originated from Feature Request forum, posted by players.

Offline Sanabas

  • Members
  • Posts: 2161
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2011, 05:32:12 AM »
oh boy are you gonna be in for a surprise!
Did you EVER play a game like World of Warcraft?

First of all, playing a simulation game, ANY simulation or management game depends on one thing, familiarity. Let it be football games or airline games. If you can't shop players or aircraft you already know it doesn't make any sense to you. The "worth" to a player flying a Boeing 797 that doesn't exist is next to nothing.
The same way buying a player in a football game that you have no knowledge of (read: re-gen).

You all dream up this 100+ year scenario as if this was the salvation of things. Since when did a proper acquisition system for AC STOP being relevant??????? Can you PLEASE elaborate on that and help my less educated mind fathom that? 

As a courtesy to Sami I'm not going to name competitors, but I've checked out some of them. To be fair, and honest, this game is still the best "simulation" so far. But there is still a lot to learn from the others. AC acquisition has a LONG way to go in AWS. AS it's borderline ancient and one of the main things people will stop playing this game. Not because you can or can not get AC. But because the process of getting these AC is too comprehensive.

Getting AC should be SIMPLE! as it is in the real world!!! If you got the money, all it takes is a phonecall to any leasing agency or a broker. Tell em you need such and such AC and this is what you are willing to pay.

You can call me an idiot, but that's just simple facts!

I've been long enough in the airline biz to know what's real(istic) and what's not.

If you all strive for realism, then allow all players to BID for AC. That's the way it REALLY works!

The long term scenario will mean that there are no longer 600 airlines starting on the same day, in an empty world. That's a big, big difference.

The fact that you imply that more complex = simulator = interesting but not so fun, and simpler = arcade = fun says a lot, I think. I used to play WoW, and put a fair bit of my free time into it. I stopped nearly 2 years ago now, and one of the two primary reasons I stopped was because it was getting steadily simpler, steadily turning into an arcade game, steadily getting much easier. It stopped being entertaining, it stopped being a challenge, it stopped being fun. So now blizzard misses out on my money (at least until Diablo 3 arrives  :P). Doesn't bother them, the changes get them other people's money instead. But I don't think the majority of those playing AWS are a similar demographic, with similar desires to the teenage hordes that play WoW.

I like games with a learning curve. I like the sense of achievement that comes from getting good at a game. 'Too comprehensive' is usually not a fault. 'Too simplistic' often is, especially for any game that hopes to keep my interest long-term.

As for your suggestion to change things to simply be able to phone up and get all 150 of the lessor's stock at once, because that's realistic, it makes no sense. Sure it's realistic, but it makes the game unplayable. It'd be like taking any complex RPG, or an awesome game series like Metal Gear Solid, and increasing the realism so that any significant wound means you WILL die without immediate professional treatment. I'm fine with flaws in realism if that increases playability.

The used market is an acknowledged problem with AWS, and it is being steadily improved. Long game worlds should improve it more, the ability to only refresh the market x times a week should also improve it. First is more realism, that most new airlines enter an established world, not an empty one. Second is less realistic. Both sound good to me.

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2011, 02:54:04 PM »
oh boy are you gonna be in for a surprise!
Did you EVER play a game like World of Warcraft?

First of all, playing a simulation game, ANY simulation or management game depends on one thing, familiarity. Let it be football games or airline games. If you can't shop players or aircraft you already know it doesn't make any sense to you. The "worth" to a player flying a Boeing 797 that doesn't exist is next to nothing.
The same way buying a player in a football game that you have no knowledge of (read: re-gen).

You all dream up this 100+ year scenario as if this was the salvation of things. Since when did a proper acquisition system for AC STOP being relevant??????? Can you PLEASE elaborate on that and help my less educated mind fathom that?  

As a courtesy to Sami I'm not going to name competitors, but I've checked out some of them. To be fair, and honest, this game is still the best "simulation" so far. But there is still a lot to learn from the others. AC acquisition has a LONG way to go in AWS. AS it's borderline ancient and one of the main things people will stop playing this game. Not because you can or can not get AC. But because the process of getting these AC is too comprehensive.

Getting AC should be SIMPLE! as it is in the real world!!! If you got the money, all it takes is a phonecall to any leasing agency or a broker. Tell em you need such and such AC and this is what you are willing to pay.

You can call me an idiot, but that's just simple facts!

I've been long enough in the airline biz to know what's real(istic) and what's not.

If you all strive for realism, then allow all players to BID for AC. That's the way it REALLY works!

No, never played World of Warcraft, or any other online RPG for that matter.  And I don't see how that is relevant, at all, to the problems you've raised with the acquisition of a/c in AWS.  Others above have explained why the long term games ought to help reduce the un-realism of the world start and improve the situation of the used market as well (although, agreed, it won't solve everything). All sims require a balance between playability and realism, and AWS -- to Sami and the player's who've made positive suggestions, credit -- has evolved with such a balance in mind.  In the 1.5+ years I've been here its improved markedly.  I'm a paying customer too and had this not been the case I would have taken my money elsewhere.

I find it interesting that you remain fixated on the problems of the used market when as a number of us have pointed out, the real improvement in v.1.3 is in the dynamics of the new market -- which you have ignored in your reply.  It seems you are so 'familiar' with the old game mechanics that you are not willing to move beyond what worked in the past...  As to the 'simple facts': obviously it would be wonderful to order a used a/c whenever one wanted/needed one. There is (and should be), however, a finite supply of a/c (there is no magic bucket with 1000 used A320s sitting in it), which means the operation of supply and demand dictates the more needed the more expensive they would be on the open market (eg. through 'bidding'). Because there are so many airlines all growing from nothing, this means those few that grow very quickly at the start and can accumulate the most capital will be able to dominate the used market even more than they do now. That might be more realistic, but it dooms 80% of the players to an even more frustrating experience than currently is the case. This is one area where balancing the game side of the equation has to be invoked over straight realism. As someone who has a 'real' life and would rather not be online all the time I'd prefer it if there was a different used a/c mechanism (so I would prefer even more un-realism, by limiting used a/c purchases per game week by airlines to half than is possible now), but of all the suggestions offered so far, the current one (esp. with improvements elsewhere, and coming) seems to be the least worst option. And in IRL, with the exception of charter and very small outfits, airlines planning on being around a while don't rely on used aircraft to build their fleet: they order new (as soon as they can).  
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 02:56:58 PM by minerva »

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2011, 06:20:33 PM »
Some really good points there Minerva, I agree with you for the most part.

I was merely suggesting the "bucket of airplanes" as an insane option to what we've got today.

Limiting the number of used AC you can get seems to be the way to go. Since there are limitations to how far you can go with strategies, at least the start of the game should be "easier". Easier in the way that you shouldn't need to sit and F5 for hours and days. Personally I think it would even out things a bit. Maybe those who play the game 24/7 will complain?

Anyways, to answer you, yes, I've played the game for a while now and I'm somewhat familiar with older engines. The frequency update in 1.3 where you no longer can't flood a destination with smaller AC is brilliant.
The achilles heel right now is just the used market. :)

Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2011, 06:29:03 PM »
This game is so unrealistic!!!1111one11

35 minute days?  Puhlease!  There are 24 hours * 60 minutes = 1440 minutes in a day.

Offline Kadachiman

  • Members
  • Posts: 913
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2011, 12:51:56 AM »
So many people make comments about 'having a real life' therefore referring that people who may spend a lot of time playing online games as 'having no life' I am not sure why people think that what they may do in their leisure time rates higher than what other may chose to do.

So if I read this correctly if you chose to do the following in your leisure time then you are using your time wisely -
fishing, motor-racing, watching TV, playing golf, going shopping, sleeping, and many other activities

Yet if you chose to do the following you are wasting your leisure time -
playing on-line strategy games or online sims

Interesting point of view whereas one person believes that what they chose to do is better use of leisure time than what another may chose to do ..... personally I enjoy making my own choices when it comes to 'MY' leisure time.

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2011, 03:19:41 AM »
So many people make comments about 'having a real life' therefore referring that people who may spend a lot of time playing online games as 'having no life' I am not sure why people think that what they may do in their leisure time rates higher than what other may chose to do.

So if I read this correctly if you chose to do the following in your leisure time then you are using your time wisely -
fishing, motor-racing, watching TV, playing golf, going shopping, sleeping, and many other activities

Yet if you chose to do the following you are wasting your leisure time -
playing on-line strategy games or online sims

Interesting point of view whereas one person believes that what they chose to do is better use of leisure time than what another may chose to do ..... personally I enjoy making my own choices when it comes to 'MY' leisure time.

Not what I meant at all -- in my post at least. I enjoy AWS and find it a worthwhile use of my time.  With kids, professional deadlines, etc., I just don't have a lot of leisure time at all.  Most of the time I spend online on AWS I should be doing something else. And thus I certainly can't spend hours on the used market no matter how much I'd like to.

Monk Xion

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2011, 02:16:20 AM »
Thanks for killing your business, old metal is welcome in my flying junkyard ;D


But to be honest... I'm fed up playing with 737 or A320's as well. If only I could operate a UK local airline using EMB120's and Cessna's and still EARN profit rather than loosing on overhead. Game play +6 for that one then.

Or Even operating just Dash 8's .... I have always wanted to that but cost and bordom kills my airlines

Monk Xion

  • Former member
Re: Is v1.3 a small step backwards?
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2011, 02:19:08 AM »
Some sims I've played on you can have 200 B747s A330s on order in only a few RL days and get them almost straight away. By that time you will either get bored, or you would have no time to schedule all those aircraft and give up (like me). So it's not so simple.

Thats true. Im playing airline empires and its pretty good tho. Playing a no widebodies game with 60 A319-100LR's on order ;D

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.