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Author Topic: question  (Read 5713 times)

Offline SAC

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Re: question
« Reply #60 on: July 23, 2011, 11:26:08 PM »
Yes I agree everybody could of done it...but you are missing the point a little...nobody should of been able to do it. 

So yes, those that did take out these loans gained an advantage over those that didn't, and now can't.

If we were being completely fair then these loans and assets purchased with them should be voided, OR let airlines take advantage of this type of loan for the rest of this game.

To stop it now means those did take out the loans are now better placed than those that didn't.  No fault of yours, or mine, as I am with you - the text was there.

But I really do feel it was such a boost that I am thankful of the action Sami has taken...it could have been a lot worse, even though everybody could have done.

I don't fancy starting again...or worse  :-\
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: question
« Reply #61 on: July 23, 2011, 11:33:35 PM »
I disagree. Everybody could do this. The fact that this was possible was written all over the forums. The spirit of the game is to try to enjoy yourself and create the best airline that you can, while giving the opportunity to others to try to do the same.

A lot of changes that Sami put in place were to slow down the explosive growth of airlines within first couple of years of the game.  This particular loophole is diametrically opposed to that intention (= spirit of the rules).

We (Elite) have reported it to Sami privately, and awaited his response.  In retrospect, we should have done what you have done when you found the lease extension bug (posted publically and privately.

If you look at Sami's response, you should have no doubt that using this loophole was outside of what he intended.  And once he found out, he immediately changed it.

Using this "loophole"
a)allows you to create a better airline, which increases the enjoyment of the game
b)doesn't take away the opportunity for others to also do the same

During my time at AWS, I have discovered that this strategy doesn't magically create a massive and profitable airline. I have used it since I joined, because I read a reference to the fact that this was allowed on the forums, and I still went under many times when I first joined. This isn't the golden ticket to success.

All is true.

But it wasn't meant to be that way, and the posts on the forums just escaped Sami's attention.  But at this point, you should have no doubt what the intention was.

I am sure that you will find future games without massive loan availability as enjoyable (if not more so) as you struggle with every dollar at the beginning of the game, try to accumulate enough money to place that one extra order for an aircraft etc...

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #62 on: July 23, 2011, 11:36:23 PM »
Yes I agree everybody could of done it...but you are missing the point a little...nobody should of been able to do it. 

why not?
In real life, I'm sure that plenty of banks are willing to offer substantially better terms than "the loan amount may not be more than the value of the security"
So yes, those that did take out these loans gained an advantage over those that didn't, and now can't.

If we were being completely fair then these loans and assets purchased with them should be voided, OR let airlines take advantage of this type of loan for the rest of this game.

I agree. I feel that this update should have been made for the next gameworld, and the current gameworld should have been left the way it already was
To stop it now means those did take out the loans are now better placed than those that didn't.  No fault of yours, or mine, as I am with you - the text was there.
Yep.
But I really do feel it was such a boost that I am thankful of the action Sami has taken...it could have been a lot worse, even though everybody could have done.


While I understand the reasoning of what Sami did, I don't agree with it. I think he should have left things the way they are, at least for this gameworld.
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Offline Kadachiman

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Re: question
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2011, 11:36:49 PM »
There are many rules in life, work, games, etc that are not written...so to argue 'wording' to me is admitting guilt but with justification.

As a newbie I could not understand how some of these 'Mega Airlines' could get hold of good used aircraft and into such expensive new planes so quickly...so I put it all down to experience of the CEO's.

To now find out that many were cheating is disappointing to say the least, as I have put good money and time into this game.

In my opinion this game world is now ruined as the 'cheating players' have grabbed all the good used aircraft, many of the slot allocations and big pax loadings, therefore the only fair way to resolve this is to have a game world reset.

This may seem a drastic step to take, but to 'lose' 1 week of real time is better than waiting for this game world to run it's course.

Regards Darryl

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2011, 11:39:45 PM »
A lot of changes that Sami put in place were to slow down the explosive growth of airlines within first couple of years of the game.  This particular loophole is diametrically opposed to that intention (= spirit of the rules).
I guess this is true, but I don't think that this is "spirit of the game", as much as it is "Sami's vision of the rules".
We (Elite) have reported it to Sami privately, and awaited his response.  In retrospect, we should have done what you have done when you found the lease extension bug (posted publically and privately.
I think that the subject of my PM might have helped too:
(v1.3)EXTREMELY MASSIVELY IMPORTANT BUG(read ASAP)  :P :P(v1.3)EXTREMELY MASSIVELY IMPORTANT BUG(read ASAP)
If you look at Sami's response, you should have no doubt that using this loophole was outside of what he intended.  And once he found out, he immediately changed it.
while it is clear NOW that this was not what he intended, it was not clear when the loans were taken. Which is why I feel that it is unfair to penalize people over something which wasn't clear at the time...
I am sure that you will find future games without massive loan availability as enjoyable (if not more so) as you struggle with every dollar at the beginning of the game, try to accumulate enough money to place that one extra order for an aircraft etc...

I'm sure I will too. I just wish that Sami had waited until the start of the next gameworld to implement this change...
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Offline SAC

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Re: question
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2011, 11:47:10 PM »
To now find out that many were cheating is disappointing to say the least, as I have put good money and time into this game.

Darryl - I take offence to that - I did not cheat - the text was there - the facility was there - the forum posts were there - you or anyone else could have done this totally innocently.
...it's not over until I say it's over

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: question
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2011, 11:55:09 PM »
I'm sure I will too. I just wish that Sami had waited until the start of the next gameworld to implement this change...

I think Sami resolved the issue very reasonably.  The current game world is allowed to continue, no one was banned, and the penalties are minor - and proportional to advantage gained.

Sami could have easily cancelled the offending loans and removed aircraft from the order queue - if not worse....

Then, those of us who never took advantage of this loophole could get a launch partner discount on 787  ;)

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 11:56:55 PM »
I think Sami resolved the issue very reasonably.  The current game world is allowed to continue, no one was banned, and the penalties are minor - and proportional to advantage gained.

Sami could have easily cancelled the offending loans and removed aircraft from the order queue - if not worse....

Then, those of us who never took advantage of this loophole could get a launch partner discount on 787  ;)

Fair enough.
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Offline [ATA] Sunbao

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Re: question
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2011, 12:00:02 AM »
There are many rules in life, work, games, etc that are not written...so to argue 'wording' to me is admitting guilt but with justification.

As a newbie I could not understand how some of these 'Mega Airlines' could get hold of good used aircraft and into such expensive new planes so quickly...so I put it all down to experience of the CEO's.

To now find out that many were cheating is disappointing to say the least, as I have put good money and time into this game.

In my opinion this game world is now ruined as the 'cheating players' have grabbed all the good used aircraft, many of the slot allocations and big pax loadings, therefore the only fair way to resolve this is to have a game world reset.

This may seem a drastic step to take, but to 'lose' 1 week of real time is better than waiting for this game world to run it's course.

Regards Darryl

To cheat you have to know that you are cheating, personally i didn't know that there was a problem.
For me personally ordering new planes have stopped me from using alot of time at the used marked what i normally otherwise will have done.
Yes i apperently got a lot of new planes easier than other because of a bug. But my experience from other game worlds where i didn't know about this "loophole" that i allmost would have got the same number of planes now or maby even more, by spending the time im usual are using at the used market.

Also big money dosen't ensure you that you can get a good company rolling, skills is also important.

There will be no point in restarting the game world now, then every game world should be restarted.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 12:02:17 AM by Sunbao »

Offline Kadachiman

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Re: question
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2011, 12:07:04 AM »
I am sure that many have done this innocently and not 'abused' it for all it was worth.

However when you see orders placed for $4 Billion worth of aircraft in one hit this early in a gameworld, then this would indicate that the CEO could be blatantly abusing the loophole and taking it to the max....perhaps their loans will now be so big that Sami's fix will make their repayments hard to meet....I hope so.

However to state that it's OK ... everyone could have cheated if they want to...is to me a pointless argument.
Cheating is cheating and people caught out should be dealt with accordingly e.g. banned, especially when you consider the fact that people pay real cash to play this game.

A difficult situation for Sami, and in reality he has dealt with it very well, it's just that I am peeved to find out players were cheating, and wonder how many other 'loopholes' that players see as 'OK' are still in this game.

Regards Darryl

Offline SAC

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Re: question
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2011, 12:12:58 AM »
However to state that it's OK ... everyone could have cheated if they want to...is to me a pointless argument.

I didn't say that !   It said it could be done on the assets page - how much more do you need to think what you are doing is correct  !
...it's not over until I say it's over

Miller11

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Re: question
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2011, 12:14:47 AM »
I am sure that many have done this innocently and not 'abused' it for all it was worth.

However when you see orders placed for $4 Billion worth of aircraft in one hit this early in a gameworld, then this would indicate that the CEO could be blatantly abusing the loophole and taking it to the max....perhaps their loans will now be so big that Sami's fix will make their repayments hard to meet....I hope so.

However to state that it's OK ... everyone could have cheated if they want to...is to me a pointless argument.
Cheating is cheating and people caught out should be dealt with accordingly e.g. banned, especially when you consider the fact that people pay real cash to play this game.

A difficult situation for Sami, and in reality he has dealt with it very well, it's just that I am peeved to find out players were cheating, and wonder how many other 'loopholes' that players see as 'OK' are still in this game.

Regards Darryl

I wonder if your "peeved" that as you put it people are cheating or the fact that your didn't read what the loan pages say? In R/L finance houses will lend you 2,3,4 or more times what your security is worth ...Thats why the whole world is going bust...............Is it fair? Probably not. Is R/L fair? Certainly not. Do we want a game thats based on R/L......Now thats the question we all need to answer...

Miller11

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2011, 12:15:49 AM »
I wonder if your "peeved" that as you put it people are cheating or the fact that your didn't read what the loan pages say? In R/L finance houses will lend you 2,3,4 or more times what your security is worth ...Thats why the whole world is going bust...............Is it fair? Probably not. Is R/L fair? Certainly not. Do we want a game thats based on R/L......Now thats the question we all need to answer...

Miller11

Post of the thread!

+1 on everything...
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Offline Kadachiman

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Re: question
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2011, 12:30:09 AM »
I am actually peeved to know that people are knowingly cheating - just to clarify it for you.

The wording on the loan page that allowed players to 'take advantage of it' (cheat) to me is people desperately trying to justify their actions...but a cheat is a cheat...no matter what wrapper you put on it.

Sorry - but if the practice was as wide spread and known about and reported in as many threads as people are saying it was...then people knew they were cheating if they then abused this.



Personally it makes no difference to me, as I will no doubt restart many more times in this game-world as I try many different ways of going about the game, as that is what I enjoy - 'working on a strategy until in my mind I have it right' and I have many restarts in many game-worlds to go yet :-)

Regards Darryl

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2011, 12:55:37 AM »
I am actually peeved to know that people are knowingly cheating - just to clarify it for you.

The wording on the loan page that allowed players to 'take advantage of it' (cheat) to me is people desperately trying to justify their actions...but a cheat is a cheat...no matter what wrapper you put on it.

Sorry - but if the practice was as wide spread and known about and reported in as many threads as people are saying it was...then people knew they were cheating if they then abused this.



Personally it makes no difference to me, as I will no doubt restart many more times in this game-world as I try many different ways of going about the game, as that is what I enjoy - 'working on a strategy until in my mind I have it right' and I have many restarts in many game-worlds to go yet :-)

Regards Darryl

I don't understand what you think is cheating...

If the words say that you can do it, the software lets you do it, and it is widespread on the forums (= lots of people do it), then how do you expect anyone to consider it cheating?
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Offline Kadachiman

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Re: question
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2011, 01:08:52 AM »
I guess it all depends on your point of view.

If the words say that you can do it, the software lets you do it, and it is widespread on the forums (= lots of people do it), then how do you expect anyone to consider it cheating?

Lets break this down and compare it to a situation in life.

words say you can do it - it is written than you can take a partner outside of marriage (on many web sites)
software lets you do it - well software or hardware = same thing? :-)
lots of people do it - it appears to be so
consider it cheating? - most people do

but I guess this depends on your point of view.

Anyway, enough from me as I have made my position in this subject clear to all.
Some will agree others will disagree, such is the way of a public forum.

Happy game time to all.
Regards Darryl

Miller11

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Re: question
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2011, 01:08:58 AM »
I am actually peeved to know that people are knowingly cheating - just to clarify it for you.

The wording on the loan page that allowed players to 'take advantage of it' (cheat) to me is people desperately trying to justify their actions...but a cheat is a cheat...no matter what wrapper you put on it.

Sorry - but if the practice was as wide spread and known about and reported in as many threads as people are saying it was...then people knew they were cheating if they then abused this.



Personally it makes no difference to me, as I will no doubt restart many more times in this game-world as I try many different ways of going about the game, as that is what I enjoy - 'working on a strategy until in my mind I have it right' and I have many restarts in many game-worlds to go yet :-)

Regards Darryl

Darryl

While I agree with you in some ways and disagree with you in others let me ask you one question.

Are you trying to tell me that your a living breathing human being, probably a middle aged man that you have never bent, twisted or manipulated anything in your life.......As you put it "just to clarify it for you"  take advantage of it means cheat (Your words) so your telling me that you have never i.e found a ,$ whatever and put it in you pocket instead of handing it into the police, or lied on a C.V or to a Partner, Boss of Friend. If this is the case then you must be a verly lonely guy. Life is life and most days it gets up my nose and knocks me down. Now do I bleat on and on and on about it and feel sorry for myself? no I get up and brush myself off and move on.

My point is this, peolpe who complain for the sake of it and portray that they are whiter than white tend to be full of .......

I myself only found out about this a couple of R/L days ago. Did I complain that after playing this game for around 2 years that "Poeple are cheating" Or "Taking advantage" NO I DID NOT. the question was asked and a PM was sent to SAMI. If that is not "FAIR AND ABOVE BOARD" then I dont know what is.
Obvesially some people have been taking full advantage of this, I myself have 35mill of loans on A/c worth 24Mill (I also have unsecured loans) so have gained 11mill from this deal which equates to about two 757-300s.

Last time I looked 600 people where in this game world. I would be happy to leave it as SAMI has stated or we could just restart the game....I have a feeling though that very few people will want to do that.

This is a truly great game, but just like life could do with a tweak or too.

Regards Adam :)
 

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: question
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2011, 01:26:27 AM »
I guess it all depends on your point of view.

If the words say that you can do it, the software lets you do it, and it is widespread on the forums (= lots of people do it), then how do you expect anyone to consider it cheating?

Lets break this down and compare it to a situation in life.

words say you can do it - it is written than you can take a partner outside of marriage (on many web sites)
software lets you do it - well software or hardware = same thing? :-)
lots of people do it - it appears to be so
consider it cheating? - most people do

but I guess this depends on your point of view.

Anyway, enough from me as I have made my position in this subject clear to all.
Some will agree others will disagree, such is the way of a public forum.

Happy game time to all.
Regards Darryl

This example is completely irrelevant.

the words are not from some random website, they are from sami himself.

so to correct your example:


words say you can do it - your spouse says that it is ok with them if you take another partner outside marriage
software lets you do it - well software or hardware = same thing? :-)
lots of people do it - it appears to be so
consider it cheating? - no, because all parties are ok with what is happening.
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Offline Kadachiman

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Re: question
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2011, 01:37:31 AM »
Hi Adam,

Your question as to my age, how I choose to live my life, etc is somewhat insulting and not relevant to this thread or my posts on this subject, so we will leave it at that.

If I am not allowed to post an opinion then you need to take this up with Sami and have him change the rules.
Time in this game does not make you anymore right and or wrong or give you nay more rights than any newbie, so the fact that you chose not to complain for more than 2 years is just that - your choice.

I am sure that some have used the loan situation unknowingly as the software let you do it so it must be OK.
But at the same time I am also sure that others have plundered this 'bug' for all it was worth, and for that they should be dealt with as per the conditions of use to which we have all agreed.

To 'go soft' on people that 'knowingly cheated' is like saying...it's OK .... you were only a little bit bad...so here is a slap on the wrist.
But then again, this can be seen in any court system in Australia as well :-)

Regards Darryl

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: question
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2011, 01:38:15 AM »
I guess it all depends on your point of view.

If the words say that you can do it, the software lets you do it, and it is widespread on the forums (= lots of people do it), then how do you expect anyone to consider it cheating?

Lets break this down and compare it to a situation in life.

words say you can do it - it is written than you can take a partner outside of marriage (on many web sites)
software lets you do it - well software or hardware = same thing? :-)
lots of people do it - it appears to be so
consider it cheating? - most people do

but I guess this depends on your point of view.

Anyway, enough from me as I have made my position in this subject clear to all.
Some will agree others will disagree, such is the way of a public forum.

Happy game time to all.
Regards Darryl

Darryl I can't agree with you.  A page in the game flat out said you could take a loan for more than the value of the securities.  That's not like some random website saying it's ok to cheat on your spouse, its more analogous to the driver's handbook in your state saying that it's ok to make a right turn on red, when in fact such action is illegal.  How the heck is someone reading officially provided materials that state the rules supposed to know that they are, in fact, out of date and directly go against the current rules?

I only found out about this a week or so ago.  My first reaction was one of disbelief, so I went and read the page myself.  Then a member of my alliance sent sami a pm.  Only after sami failed to respond for a significant length of time did I act on that text.  Honestly, until today I was feeling pretty dumb for having never actually read a word on the damn page for almost two years and just assuming it worked like I thought it should.

So today, sami comes back finally and says that it's not working as intended and whacks everyone who used it on the knuckles.  That's perfectly fair.  Apparently I should have restrained myself a bit longer and now I've got to pay the price.  But cheating implies that I deliberately set out to screw everyone else playing over, and I didn't.  In fact I thought I'd just been an idiot for the last two years.  And restarting the game world, as you mentioned in the post before the one I quoted, seems both excessive punishment toward those guilty, and would penalize the probably 550+ players who didn't take these loans.

Regards, and good gaming to you,
-Ryan

 

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