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Author Topic: Turnrounds too short  (Read 4098 times)

Offline philkirk99

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Turnrounds too short
« on: July 21, 2011, 06:24:32 PM »
I've just started and seen on one of my days the "Flight was canceled / Scheduling (too short turn-arounds)". I don't understand why because on all the other days of the week, it is fine and the scheduling is the same for all days of the week. Can anyone help????

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 08:20:45 AM »
Hello,

what aircraft type is it and how long is the turn-around time you use?

Offline philkirk99

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 11:18:31 AM »
Hi there,

I'd scheduled 45 minutes on a Jetstream 32 - way more than what is required. It was just odd because although my schedule is the same every day of the week, I only got that message for 1 day - not every day of the week. Just seemed a bit odd.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 04:02:16 PM »
Imagine you have scheduled everything perfect... and the truck that deliveres your fuel has a flat tire.

Of course he has not a flat tire every day, but at this specific day he had. That's why your flight was cancelled or delayed.

And now imagine all other things that could happen instead of a flat tire on the fuel truck to get an impression why sometimes perfectly scheduled flights on new aircraft have problems :)

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2012, 01:27:33 PM »
In real life flight can't cancel with reason "Scheduling" (too short turn-arounds). (Сorrectly identify - "Fault aircraft rotation")
Need too read IATA AHM. "Fault aircraft rotation" - is this reason of delay, but not it cancel.
This scene in game work is incorrect.
      

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2012, 10:03:56 PM »
(We are not simulating IATA delay codes here... as there are too many of those :P )

Sergey Goncharenko

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 03:30:39 AM »
(We are not simulating IATA delay codes here... as there are too many of those :P )
Sami, flight cancellation — is outstanding event. Airlines cancel flights very seldom.
More often cancellation reason - low loading factor (less than 20 % seats).
Also flights aren't cancelled because of weather conditions, usually aircraft are delay.
The force-majeure reasons (personal strike of the airport or airline) – these events happens maximum of 1 times in 2 years.
For example: in my game 3204 weekly flights now, 135-140 flights regularly are cancelled (4 %). In real life any Airline would lose the Certificate for such activity.
I think that it is necessary to raise level complexity AWS, differently players interest will weaken.

Offline Colsie123

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 04:11:06 AM »
Would a more realistic delay/cancellation be instead of due ot weather diversion due to weather/tech reason. That is of course general but something which is reasonably common. It could also add in those costs airlines face they don't plan for ie costs of landing at a non serviced airport for your airline. That would be something I would like to see to replace cancellation due to scheduling.

Infact if I can feel more awake later on I may place this in the suggestion forum.

Sergey Goncharenko

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 04:56:56 AM »
Each Airline has reserve aircrafts. Usually on each 10 a/c use 1 reserve a/c. Flights continuously in process.  If the aircraft is in maintenance (B, C or D checks), it’s replaced with the reserve a/c.
Rotation of aircrafts in game is realized incorrectly. It's not enough week cycle. The monthly cycle - a minimum is necessary.

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 09:33:54 AM »
Airlines do NOT have generally reserve aircraft. It would be extremely bad business to sit multimillion dollar planes on the ground just waiting for some technical mishap. Finding a replacement aircraft in the event of looming cancellation depends on how the schedules and rotation of other planes work in relation to the problematic flight...  (just had one cancellation last week due to lack of equipment and staff).  But nautrally for maintenances the plane is replaced, but that is of course because the same plane never flies only the single route (what we have here due to simplicity).

And also, Weather cancellations are not that rare... Yes, modern airports have the equipment but let's remember for example London a month back where half of flights were cancelled during a few days due to wx (which was a bit ridiculous..but still).

And we are not building a monthly schedule view either, that would be horrendous to manage for the players if you think of it a while...


Here's a nice link for US "live" cancellation data http://uk.flightaware.com/live/cancelled/yesterday

Take SkyWest for example, their website says they operate 1600+ flights a day (http://www.skywest.com/about/gen_info.php) and yesterday they cancelled 46 flights, making the  2.8% of all flights cancelled. Not that far off in AWS! Especially since the cancellation % is recommended to be kept below 2% to avoid CI problems.

Colgan Air, one reference quotes "more than 350 daily flights" (which I suspect is a bit low, but still..), and flightaware lists 24 cancellations. So that would be 6.8% cancellation rate already.. Are they losing their Certificate for this?  :P
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:33:19 AM by sami »

Sergey Goncharenko

  • Former member
Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »
Airlines do NOT have generally reserve aircraft.
Sami, nobody will cancel schedule flight for 15-30 days period, and to wait while the plane will serv. С-ceck or D-check complete. In this case there are reserve planes.
Also 2,8 % cancellation in real data against 4 % in AWS - a difference in 1,4 times.  This inadmissible deviation for simulator!!!
There is no special plane for a reserve. Reserve it’s the plane free from flights schedule.
I don't know any real case in life when the airline has cancelled flights for the reason «Scheduling (too short turn-arounds».

Offline Dan

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 07:17:29 PM »
I understand why there are cancellations of flights due tech or wx  etc - no problem and as has been said, cancellations for these factors occur frequently in real life.

I don't quite understand the cancellations due to 'scheduling' when the turn round times are far in excess of the minimum.

Is the term 'scheduling' a general term for any other scenario such as: -
ATC or RFFS strike/go slow
Bomb warning at airport or on aircraft
Last minute flight crew sickness
Volcanic ash or whatever

It appears that there are rather a lot of 'scheduling' cancellations factored into the game when it is not particularly relevant to scheduling in the true sense of the word.

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 09:51:12 PM »
Sami, nobody will cancel schedule flight for 15-30 days period, and to wait while the plane will serv. С-ceck or D-check complete. In this case there are reserve planes.

And I did not even claim that if you read again. I was talking about reserve planes for these tech/schedule related cancellations, so please do not try to mix it up.

(in aws while planes are in c/d the flights are NOT cancelled, they are simply just "not sold" for that period so to say)


Quote
Also 2,8 % cancellation in real data against 4 % in AWS - a difference in 1,4 times.  This inadmissible deviation for simulator!!!

 ::)
The amount of cancellations is directly related to what you schedule and plan. If you make them delay-prone, it is not the systems fault that you get cancellations! Like I already said (this too) the cancellations should be less than 2% to be in "normal" state of operations, anything more will hurt your airline's image and such. (this reads on the flight delay page too)

« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 09:53:28 PM by sami »

Sergey Goncharenko

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 10:22:46 PM »
And I did not even claim that if you read again. I was talking about reserve planes for these tech/schedule related cancellations, so please do not try to mix it up.
I understand. Tell me at least one Airline, which stops sale tickets a 15-30 days period for the reason C or D-check? No! It is a nonsense!
In this case flight continues to fly. Schedule may be schance in this cases/period possible. Anybody doesn't close sale ticket.
I worked in a different real Airlines since 1994 y., and never met such cases.
And that in AWS for change the schedule necessary spend money, for paying the new slots. It is unreal.
Losses of idle-time aircraft more than cost of the reserve plane. Calculate, please: 144 flights are cancelled in a week (=7500 per year). Income loss makes 7500 * $ $10 000 (average profit by 1 flt) = $75 000 000 million = costs of the new plane.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:31:06 PM by Uran »

Sergey Goncharenko

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 10:38:38 PM »
The amount of cancellations is directly related to what you schedule and plan.
Oh, no!
Sorry. I specially tested. See: 1 plane, 1 flight every day. Dep 10:25 Arr 14:40, back flight: dep 16:40 arr 18:55. For ATR-42/72 a/c type 2:00 hour groung time - it above, than is necessary. But has changed nothing: "schedule (too short time...)... 2 flts a week was cnl..  >:(

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 10:40:57 PM »
Oh my lord how difficult it can be to understand..

1) for the sake of simplicity the schedule is weekly (vs ongoing/daily in reality)
2) for the sake of simpicity and to avoid ridiculous amounts of micromanagement the c/d checks take the plane off the routes and for that period the route appears as "not for sale" (not as cancellations!)
3) for the sake of simplicity each route is assigned to a single aircraft in the schedule and it is repeated week by week (vs completely "random" or changeable by day in reality)

With everything (those three points and various other things) combined the scheduling "complexity" will never match what real airlines do and how they rotate the planes, since it would be impossible for the players to manage in reasonable time. I do very well know how it is done in real life. And I know also very well that simulating such rotation systems in a game is not possible as it would require full-time personnel to manage them.

There has to be drawn a line where playability goes first in some things, and hence the one thing I hate most is just this - pointless arguing with random facts or very random math calculatons from here and there and saying that this or that is unreal and pointless, and no view of the big picture. So please give it a rest already.

If you have some PROPER suggestions please post them in the correct forum (following the instructions there).


And also. To move a schedule between planes, no money is needed. If you change the dep/arr times, then it may be subject to slot costs. But how on earth is that related to anything in this topic?

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 10:41:16 PM »
It would be lovely to run an airline with 0% cancellations and 100% punctuality, but is this possible? Even with no weather, ATC, technical, staff delays?
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 10:44:41 PM »
Oh, no!
Sorry. I specially tested. See: 1 plane, 1 flight every day. Dep 10:25 Arr 14:40, back flight: dep 16:40 arr 18:55. For ATR-42/72 a/c type 2:00 hour groung time - it above, than is necessary. But has changed nothing: "schedule (too short time...)... 2 flts a week was cnl..

If the turnarond at home base is really 2 hours then it seems odd. If there are NO other flights in schedule then I actually do not even believe this. But as you did not specify fully you need to understand that for example the adjacent flights may also cause delays for this flight....

However, you should look this for a longer time. Since the delay calculation is not per-flight specific, it does not look on how many minutes previous was delayed and then decide on cancellation, as that would be impossible for the server (there are 10000+ flights to calculate every 30 minutes!). Instead it is based fully on statistics and probabilities, so in "bad luck" scenario the above may still happen but very very rarely. So either you have some other flights causing this (or the turnaround inside the flight is too small), or it is simply a single occurence.

In any case - look at the companywide delay stats over a longer period.


Edit; did not find such a route combination from your MT#6 airline, so where did you get these figures or what flight is this in the first place?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:55:38 PM by sami »

Offline Sami

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 10:58:03 PM »
It would be lovely to run an airline with 0% cancellations and 100% punctuality, but is this possible? Even with no weather, ATC, technical, staff delays?

No since usually the last passenger is always having his beer still while the dep time comes...  :P

So perhaps with no pax, no crew, no atc, no techprobs, no wx .. Umm and so on.

So no.  8)

Sergey Goncharenko

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Re: Turnrounds too short
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2012, 12:36:14 AM »
Sami, in real life the schedule and aircraft rotation (crew rotation) is made automatically.
Airline CEO doesn't operations with the schedule  (my be very seldom).
Why it’s impossible to make this in a AWS-simulator? I think, these are elementary functions.
I try, that you have understood: for schedule flights reason “Too short turn-around” – is not reason for cancel flight. This is the reason for flight DELAY!
If you "love" cancellations very mush, it would be more logical to increase cancellations in case, when Airline has negative balance - when there is no money, suppliers can't any more provide planes fueling, airports refuse to handling and catering...  etc. ;D

 

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