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Author Topic: A-B-C-B-A  (Read 1415 times)

Sandager

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A-B-C-B-A
« on: July 11, 2011, 09:38:20 AM »
 Is this routing reintroduced in this game? There were talks about it coming back in V1.3

GEnx

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2011, 09:41:26 AM »
As far as I know, no.

Sandager

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2011, 10:40:03 AM »
 So the game is still favouring operators out of big airports. Sad....

 Anyone got a clue as to why the Yamassoukro treaty is not a part of this game? Certainly it was possible to open up the european market. The Yamassoukro treaty should do the same, kind of, in Africa. Yet this treaty is not here......

Online Sami

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 10:45:13 AM »
The Yamassoukro treaty should do the same, kind of, in Africa. Yet this treaty is not here......

It is not the same. According to this link ( http://go.worldbank.org/UCOV9Z3ZJ0 ) at least it grants only rights up to the fifth freedom which only allows a carrier to fly between his home country and other treaty's country, when originating from home country. Not allowing cabotage or 7/8/9 freedoms which are in EU and which are required for free basing in other countries. Hence it will not be modeled.

However the reference to that treaty, and countries who apply it (and since what year they have applied it, and to what extent they apply it), is something that's not easy to find. (so there may be more rights to that link above suggests .. but can't find a proper source)


edit: There are also some other openskies treaties, Singapore-UK (?) etc.. I have a list of them but it's work in progress. And most of them have been implemented only in the past few years, so not much use generally.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 11:35:32 AM by sami »

Winstonread

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 11:30:58 AM »
you tell them sami , i think youre doing a great job and im loving the game!!!   :D

Sandager

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 01:54:36 PM »
 hence the kind of the same. It is not. But it got some similarities. Not many. But for Africa it is progress. As I am not based in Africa, I don't really care. I just remember there was some talk about reintroducing this kind of routing. Remember it was part of the game earlier on. personally I don't care that there are now 600 in the game, compared to 500 in the last similar game world. The game still holds the same faults. Way to high profit margins might be the main problem. But as has been discussed in other forums is the crowding of big airports. Not reintroducing the A-B-C-B-A only favours basing your airline in a big airport. It just doesn't make sense to base your airline in a smaller airport. Just look at where the majority of airliners are based? this should give a clue.
 From my understanding the YD, Yamoussoukro decision, allows the fifth freedom. I am not sure about cabotage. But fifth freedom would be to fly A-B-C-B-A, however C might have to be in another country than B.
 It appears the Yammousoukro declaration was negotiated and agreed upon in 2004. 7 years ago. I accept it is work in progress, but considering your input, Sami, I consider it that we will see no Yammousoukro. And you will once again stay with the favouring of big airports. This is a feature that is simply destroying the game as players will not be willing to open up carriers anywhere else than the biggest airports.
 Personally I don't care much. If I could have my credits refunded, I would. I find the game is the same, no development, you start over, but it is still the same. I just don't want to waste my credits

Online Sami

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 02:01:48 PM »
Sorry, if you care to read what I wrote again with a closer look. Fifth freedom rights alone are no help at all, since it would not make any difference to what is planned/decided already. The modelling of freedoms of the air modelling was decided as follows: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,5424.msg132114.html#msg132114  

In short; modelling the 5/6th freedoms throughout the world is not possible as such data does not exist in an easily accessible format for the last 50 years for all countries. With 3-leg routes the second leg must be within your country or area of cabotage rights as you pick up passengers from there too (I mean have the possibility to transit pax between the two countries); or then the 5th freedom is assumed for everyone with the ability of only selling tickets from the two legs to home base only (not between the two "out" legs) - but this requires some largish technical changes.

In other words, why should I model a treaty that is a) impossible or hard to find accurate data, and b) no real use/difference to playability?


Also, if you really say that there is no development, I urge you to look at the changelog listings for the latest versions.
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,26356.0.html
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,20105.0.html
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,18597.0.html
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,14383.0.html
etc.

The development happens all the time.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 02:10:56 PM by sami »

Offline alexgv1

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 02:11:52 PM »
Hmm yes the launch of v1.3 is a bad time to mention "lack of development" in AWS. There have been great leaps forward in terms of gameplay, enjoyability and functionality in the game since even only I started playing, let alone those others from 2007. 3 pages of improvements just for the latest update v1.3 which means even more pages of work for the development team. Despite the fact that Sami has his own desires for this project he ha generally taken on sensibly proposed ideas from the AWS user base and incorporating them into the game.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Sandager

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 02:27:12 PM »
 I am not at all opposed to the work that Sami and his colleagues are doing. they are doing a great job.  As for development, I have seen new features. Something major....  Ehhmmm not really. One of the major ones is the fuel contract.  which only makes sense for major, or at least bigger, carriers. Again; favouring operators out of big airports. The same as previous games. One can forget about establishing a carrier most places in Africa. Just have a look at where people set up their business. It seems obvious that there is a need to make it more interesting to establish your business somewhere else than LHR,FRA, JFK and so on.... It is not present, and apparently nothing that will be changed.
 Sami, with all due respect, I honestly believe that allowing the gameplayers to set up an airliner in Africa, in a smaller airport, at allow them to develop their business to more than a few handful of routes will increase the amount of carriers around the world not operating out of the biggest airports.
 I am glad that we finally can accept that this is not a simulation of the real world, it is a game. I just still wonder why the A-B-C-B-A  options was removed originally, however that is without any question your right, Sami, as the owner/developer.
 And regarding development, I have found nothing here that is not existing in airlinesim new and old. In fact the other game is quite more developed. But I accept that the games are significantly different in the structure as well

Offline LemonButt

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 02:35:10 PM »
To quote myself from a previous post:

Quote
ABCBA routing is more realistic, but there needs to be some sort of limits placed on it in the game to make it usable.  In a previous Modern Times, I had the largest airline in the game (and I started late) by basing in Atlanta and running every single route ATL-B-ORD-B-ATL.  I had the #1 marketshare at the 2 largest airports in the world at a time when airlines could only have 1 base.  Furthermore, considering the costs associated with opening new bases, it would be much more profitable to run ABCBA routes in this same manner to avoid the huge costs associated with additional bases.  I think we're going to have to wait for business plans to go into effect with focus cities in order to open ABCBA routes again.

I'd love to see small airports viable as well...I believe this will be taken care of when city-based demand is implemented, especially connecting passengers.  In the future, you should be able to open up a base in the middle of Africa with direct flights to London and Singapore and be able to compete with other airlines on the London-Singapore route by connecting passengers (and offering a cheaper rate of course).  The other issue is making small planes viable, which will hopefully happen when business plans are implemented.  In the mean time, sami has a job and developing AWS is a hobby, so we're at his coding mercy when it comes to development velocity :)

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 02:40:19 PM »
and offering a cheaper rate of course). 
price competition would be nice too ;)
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Online Sami

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Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 03:07:02 PM »
set up an airliner in Africa, in a smaller airport, at allow them to develop their business to more than a few handful of routes will increase the amount of carriers around the world not operating out of the biggest airports.

How many routes are you expecting to fly from a smaller airport in Africa? Or how many routes some airline in small airport in Africa is flying in real world?

I mean you really aren't expecting to run some 100-strong Airbus fleet from a regional African airport.. So I guess we are done with this.

But I do agree that people do not seem to get out of their old habits in regards of choosing a base airport. You can very well run an airline outside the "JFK,LHR,FRA". And I do agree that the route demands are too static presently. But that's something that can not be changed overnight, or two nights..  :P
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:13:36 PM by sami »

GDK

  • Former member
Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 03:27:33 PM »
How many routes are you expecting to fly from a smaller airport in Africa? Or how many routes some airline in small airport in Africa is flying in real world?

I mean you really aren't expecting to run some 100-strong Airbus fleet from a regional African airport.. So I guess we are done with this.

But I do agree that people do not seem to get out of their old habits in regards of choosing a base airport. You can very well run an airline outside the "JFK,LHR,FRA". And I do agree that the route demands are too static presently. But that's something that can not be changed overnight, or two nights..  :P


Not to say in Africa but take my country Malaysia as example. We really have an airline with a fleet of 100 A320 here and another having a huge fleet of both Airbus + Boeing also. But this is impossible in AWS where a routes with more than 20 daily flights of B737+A320 is only having a daily demand of 200 in AWS.

I have not much opinion on the ABCBA or sky freedom issue but I'm more concern to making small airports more reality with the demand so that people won't squeeze themselves at those popular base.

Winstonread

  • Former member
Re: A-B-C-B-A
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 03:53:02 PM »
I know the quest for perfection overwhelms most of us , but give sami a break seriously , this is the most realistic airline management game , given time it will get better and all the lil flaws you guys are bugging sami about i think sami knows tbh . enjoy the game rather than complaining :)

 

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