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Author Topic: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions  (Read 2881 times)

Offline Julien

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Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« on: May 26, 2011, 07:15:35 AM »
Hey,

As I never flew the B787-800 before I tried to lease some (around 8 to start) and I tried 2 different scenarios :
1/ Ultra long haul route : from Tehran To mexico (7099nm) : I reach a 79% LF but the plane was loosing money, then I decided to change my strategy :
2/ Combined 2 x Long/Medium Haul routes flying New York or Toronto every two days and Paris the other day. Here are the stats :

Values show the actual profit/loss of the aircraft including all fees and payments.

Profit yesterday   29 104 USD
Cumulative profit this week   291 291 USD
Cumulative profit last week   400 983 USD


The sums are an estimate of next week's incomes based on previous day.

Sold tickets   1 270 719 USD
Line maintenance (A+B)   -19 092 USD
Insurance   -91 955 USD
Fuel cost   -602 249 USD
Route fees (1)   -230 927 USD
Weekly leasing cost   -568 611 USD
Total   -242 115 USD

As you can see, in this scenario, plane is also loosing money. Average LF with EWR/CDG is around 78%.

I would like to know if some of you have a good experience with this plane.
I am also seeing the 15/20% fuel consumption reduction anounced in the real life is not respected here.

Ciao !!
Julien

Offline romeozulu

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 07:59:16 AM »
Hi,

In my opinion it could be a good one, if you buy it. Leasing cost is 568 611 USD per week !!! It is too much to make good profit with it. I used to operate some 772 on leasing and the leasing fee was around 600 000 USD/w (Larger planes, but close leasing cost). I was making less than 500 000 profit/w/plane on LH that I operated every day, without the staff cost !!!

My leased A320 on SH routes were making way over more profit (800 000 USD/w/plane).

Well, definitely LH flights don't make as much money as SH or MH. I would say that we do operate LH for prestige or image, but not for money  8) Maybe the new game engine will change it.

enjoy your day
Romeozulu

juanchopancho

  • Former member
Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 12:50:31 PM »
In my experience in this game it sucks.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 12:59:53 PM »
There's several threads discussing this plane and the conclusion is as above: In AWS it sucks.

I think it's because the configurations are not modeled correctly, and possibly the fuel burn isn't right (seeing as it was put in game when fuel burn and range were just estimates).

If you do a search and read up more on the topic it may shed some more light, hope this helps.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Julien

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 01:22:55 PM »
Thanks for your comments.
Would you recommend B767 or B777 instead ?

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 01:23:28 PM »
Thanks for your comments.
Would you recommend B767 or B777 instead ?


From what I've read, most would say B767-400ER  :)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »
Thanks for your comments.
Would you recommend B767 or B777 instead ?


This depends on endless parameters and can't be said as long as one doesn't know details of your airline, your destinations etc.

In some cases the B767-400ER is best, in some B777 family and in some other aircraft.

Zabuti

  • Former member
Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2011, 01:37:49 PM »
Hello

in terms of personal decision making, I've always focused on how much does it cost me to travel one pax on 1 nm with each plane; i've got a pretty big Excel sheet doing this (actually, I've been using and improving it for about 4 or 5 game worlds.;; so it's starting to be pretty big now lol).

Basically the idea behind that is that you should decide for yourself which parameters you want to take into account, then compare your aircrafts according to those parameters and choose what the best option is according to your expected use. To me, it's cost per pax per nm, to which I add leasing cost, maintenance costs, est. landing fees,... all reported over 1 day.

Then, I can decide "ok, i want to do a CDG-NRT route... i've got a bunch of 3 good planes to use, which one is better". i enter their data and ACTUAL LEASING COSTS, then choose the best one.

In my experience, LH is where I clearly do my money, since I standardize and cut costs a lot. Moreover, I always consider each route as independant, so that i make them all breaking even. b767 is not a good profit maker as for my strartegy, but it might be according to your priorities. I believe B773, A332 and A346X are great.

But as usual, this is only a guideline. I'm not crazy enough to decide to do CDG-JFK with A332 simply because it looks more fuel efficient. There's a lot of competition on this route and few slots available, so I'd better take B747 or A380 to maximize the route. Indeed, competition through frequency is not a good choice there.

Up to you

BTW, it must sound obvious, but I strongly recommend to sign only for 1-y long leases. it becomes cheaper when renewed after one year :=)

Hope this helps.

Have a great game
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 02:59:55 PM by Flobacca »

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 03:49:35 PM »

BTW, it must sound obvious, but I strongly recommend to sign only for 1-y long leases. it becomes cheaper when renewed after one year :=)

Leases go up NOT down eg a 767 I have is currently leased at $2 080 000 per month the lease expire in 1 months time and to renew it will now cost me $2 101 760 per month an increase $21760.  

Anyway the 787 I have just begun operating them and even with the lease taken into account they will make me money, but... You need good C demand and a good F demand if you can and I am operating a 7 day rotation schedule with 4 4500NM routes a 5600NM route and a 300NM Route and they bring in around $300k profit after costs but ULH route I dont think there are any aircraft in game that can make you a good profit unless they are owned outright and I dont think the 787 will neither  :-\.

Also I am not sure about the fuel efficiency calcuation for the 787 and dont know how accurate it is in game.  But Boeing have claimed the 787 would be near to 20% more fuel-efficient than the 767,[25] with one-third of the efficiency gain from the engines, another third from aerodynamic improvements and the increased use of lighter-weight composite materials, and the final third from advanced systems.

{25}^ Norris, Guy (2009-01-09). "Boeing Rules Out 787 Window Change". Aviation Week. Retrieved 2009-01-11.

So not sure how on earth SAMI could ever calculate a 20% saving for the 787 into the game engine based on Boeings Claims!

Offline ArcherII

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 05:08:14 PM »
I think that if you have a 787 that weights like a 763, the fuel flow will be 20% less than the 67. But as the 787 is much heavier (due to cargo and range), the fuel consumption equals the one of the 767 in the numbers. Thus, it is 20% more fuel efficient.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 08:32:10 AM »
Problem with 787 data in AWS is that it is just completely wrong.  As a result, 787 is useless in AWS.  Check out this post, and the rest of the posts here:

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30506.msg157856.html#msg157856

Basically, the passenger numbers are WAY too low in AWS.  Fuel consumption is still an estimate, and so are the ranges.

Offline type45

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 11:58:31 AM »
I think one of the problem is cargo. AWS has no cargo system yet, and one of the major improvement from 767 to 787 is cargo capacity. Accompany with the pax number and the leseing system, this all make 787 suck in AWS......

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2011, 04:16:07 AM »
I think one of the problem is cargo. AWS has no cargo system yet, and one of the major improvement from 767 to 787 is cargo capacity. Accompany with the pax number and the leseing system, this all make 787 suck in AWS......

Well, we don't have cargo, but from what we have (passengers), the difference between 767 fleet and 787 fleet is huge, and, based on AWS data, a huge step back ~30% in may parameters, whereas in real world, 787 will outperform 767 in just about every category.

Offline Julien

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2011, 07:11:25 AM »
Hey again...

I finally found a way to make this B787 profitable :
I turned it onto a regional charter jet lol. 300 paxs flying 3 flights a day on domestic routes.

Here are the new figures :

Values show the actual profit/loss of the aircraft including all fees and payments.

Profit yesterday   82 434 USD
Cumulative profit this week   325 718 USD
Cumulative profit last week   374 127 USD

The sums are an estimate of next week's incomes based on previous day.


Sold tickets   1 806 353 USD
Line maintenance (A+B)   -19 338 USD
Insurance   -90 936 USD
Fuel cost   -303 995 USD
Route fees (1)   -374 799 USD
Weekly leasing cost   -565 350 USD

Total   451 935 USD

I see some of AWS airlines are massively going onto this jet...
I'm a bit afraid of the results...

For info, I now use the B767-400 on Toronto and NYC routes. They replaced the B787 and are making money.
Thanx for your advices guys.

Julien

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2011, 01:14:19 PM »
The 787-8's are not as good as they look, I think that has more to do with the 'assumed' performance of the aicraft. If I were to chose a performer in the MT arena I would say that the 767-400ER outperforms the 787 quite significantly.  

My 787's have now settled in nicely on routes they are operating within North America and are turning an  'ok' profit but certainly nothing outstanding. The 767-400ERs I operate (35 in total) even with fuel over $1000 are still bringing in an average  weekly profit of $1.2M per aircraft and most of them are operating at the higher end of 4000+NM routes.

 It would be interesting to see how the  787-9 performs due to tis slightly smaller size but for now the 767-400ER is King for me.

juanchopancho

  • Former member
Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2011, 02:02:46 PM »
Long story short, in this game the 787 still sucks.

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2011, 04:07:02 PM »
Long story short, in this game the 787 still sucks.

Yep, it is not a good perormer although checkas are cheap! I wonder what ther Airbus A350 Series is like  :-\

Offline type45

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Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2011, 09:55:01 PM »
maybe before updates can make it better, I should not wait for 787 and just order 767-200/300 to handle those thin routes ;)

kone_alta

  • Former member
Re: Is the B787 a good plane ? report / opinions
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2011, 04:57:04 PM »
being operated with 24 owned 787 and final number of 56, I really don't think 787 make reasonable profit compare with its price, although I have nothing to complain with its efficiency  :-\
My model is to fly 6 ~4XXXNM routes per week and 2 class config, resulting 4XX~5XXk profit per week.
Anyhow, see if 787-9 can perform better  ::)

 

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