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Author Topic: Slots  (Read 5419 times)

vitongwangki

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Re: Slots
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2011, 05:20:08 PM »
Without the extreme slot costs I would have up to 70 aircraft right now. So it's an effective blocker.
I spent 10 Mi to buy slots for my 20 planes, painful enough.
I agree this is an effective way to block "too rapid" expansion. 8)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2011, 05:36:55 PM »
Not sure I agree there.  In DOTM1, I was running 757s on LH (Dublin tends to be fairly thin) and getting around 110-130k per day for a single trans-Atlantic trip (with C/F load factors of 80-100%) - say 90k for a 707 at the current time in DOTM2.  On my 732s in DOTM2 (3 round trips LHR, 80%+ C load) I am getting around 42k.  Not running any long haul yet - 707s and DC-8s drink too much fuel for me! - but with 7 day slot costs of around 180k each on top of leasing up-front costs, the SH option is now around $1m up front to set up, whereas a LH is significantly around the same for a much greater return.

As I said, not a complaint as such - it does slow up slot use - but I feel it does discriminate against SH operation and require a different thought process which is not necessarily a bad thing!

MD

Shorter routes generate more revenue.  Here is an example:
Chicago to Atlanta on BAC One-Eleven: $91 for Y seat, 540 nm, ~6 hour route (including turnaround time)
Chicago to Los Angeles on BAC One-Eleven: $130 for Y seat, 1500nm, ~12 hour route (including turnaround time)

If you fly to ATL 4x/day you can generate $91 per seat * 2 (round trip) * 4 (flights) = $728/seat/day
If you fly to LAX 2x/day you can generate $130 per seat * 2 (round trip) * 2 (flights) = $520/seat/day

Flying to ATL will require 4320nm flown worth of fuel.
Flying to LAX will require 6000nm flown worth of fuel.

Which is more profitable?
$728/seat/day in revenue + 4320nm fuel
$520/seat/day in revenue + 6000nm fuel

Granted this doesn't include other variable fees, but you can see here that you can generate more revenue and use less fuel (biggest variable cost) just by flying shorter routes.  Thus people flying shorter routes and paying high slot prices works out great...

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2011, 10:58:23 PM »
Haneda is out of slots. Don't know how this could happen..... :>

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2011, 12:32:14 AM »
I think this speaks for itself  :o

(weekly financial overview, current and last week!)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2011, 12:41:44 AM »
An airline with 12 aircraft just BK'd at Haneda...get 'em while they're hot!

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2011, 07:09:27 AM »
Thanks a lot :)

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2011, 07:57:20 PM »
I must say, the slot system is working beautifully in this game.  I requested a game with unlimited slots (http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,30592.0.html), but this seems to be a better system as it spreads the growth across the entire 24 hour spectrum.  Heathrow has 20 slots available in several hour blocks still and we're almost 18 months in.  If you haven't flown to Heathrow yet and want to, you should be able to in the years ahead thanks to the slot growth.  Haneda has plenty of slots left and Narita has at least 11 slots left in every hour block.

I think every game should employ this same slot growth system with a few tweaks: 100% growth should be achieved later in the game (2-4 years?) with additional growth to 200% occuring 10-15 years in (assuming 20 year game).

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 09:57:26 PM »
Remind Heathrow has no big airline in it, or even two of them, but I must agree, it seems to be a good system.

Some slot hoggers got extremely slowed out, while others on secondary airports haven't this problem this much.

I'm curious how things turn out at the end of the game.

Offline EYguy

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Re: Slots
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2011, 12:04:30 AM »
It is not bad but it is also a bit unrealistic... And the prices are way too high, sometimes... Btw, this compromises between playability and reality are always a pain in the neck! ;)

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2011, 12:15:04 AM »
To be honest I think the slots in many airports are not high enough. People are still able to fly to and out of supreme airports with crappy little aircraft.

And maybe it's unrealistic. But less unrealistic as the fact airports never expand even a huge demand for more slots is available. Also this model makes sure everybody can have fun flying to most airports and not ending the game through the backdoor due to no slots after one or two years.

Offline Sami

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Re: Slots
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2011, 07:06:32 PM »
Further comments?

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Slots
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2011, 07:09:36 PM »
Further comments?

Even with more slots available people still hog slots -_-
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Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 07:16:46 PM »
To be honest I think the slots in many airports are not high enough.

That's a misspelling by myself. I mean slot costs, not the amount of slots and I see it can be misunderstood.

While slot costs at major airports (I take Tokyo Haneda as example) are extremely high and slowered my expansion massively (at some time I had the system: wait 24 hours for money and get aircraft. wait 24 hours for money and get slots...) as it seems others had the same problem, slot hogging was prevented on those airports mostly - biggest proof is the fact there is no single successful airline at Heathrow, because all of them tried to hog slots with small aircraft.

Now the problem:
On several airports of the second range like Barcelona, Dubai or (more in my region in this game world) Sapporo slot costs are still very inexpensive.



The total amount of slots seems good so far. Due to the fact you increased the amount in general and airlines are developing much slower there are plenty of slots available all over the world.



So far, I like the system and your custom fuel prices for this game world are very nice, too. I'm absolutely happy with this game world!

Offline LemonButt

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Re: Slots
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 07:53:03 PM »
Further comments?

If there is a route that someone wants to compete on, they have the ability to do so.  I think this is the crux of the matter.  It's now extremely difficult to load up a high density route and have zero competition due to lack of slots.  I think it will get much more interesting as the larger airlines start branching out and you see more competition pop up through new bases.  If someone joins the world late, they have ability to take on an MD-81 with 3 F27's as the slots are still available, which in my opinion, is a beautiful thing.

Hopefully high fuel prices will bankrupt some of the bigger airlines so I can finally get some 1-11 500's on the used market...

Offline EYguy

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Re: Slots
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2011, 05:25:44 AM »
Problem of people hogging slots is that things will stay the same until the demand model will prize frequency above everything. In DotM I've 737 MXP-FCO and people with crappy a/c are harming me because frequency is still more important than a/c type and flight time.

It is always very hard to find a balance between frequency, flight time and a/c used but I think this matter should be addressed asap because, as Curse said in various posts, it's a real problem

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Slots
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2011, 05:31:27 AM »
Problem of people hogging slots is that things will stay the same until the demand model will prize frequency above everything. In DotM I've 737 MXP-FCO and people with crappy a/c are harming me because frequency is still more important than a/c type and flight time.

It is always very hard to find a balance between frequency, flight time and a/c used but I think this matter should be addressed asap because, as Curse said in various posts, it's a real problem

Yes, it's a huge issue. Hogging slots has become such a necessity that the airline which I reported to Sami actually is based at an airport with lots of slot availability, relative to other major airports. You can imagine how much of an issue it would be once slots start to run out.
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Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Slots
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2011, 05:38:10 AM »
I'm happy to see member of the team face the problems we normal players always have now by themselves, noticing how big this problem is in real game worlds and mainly accept this is nothing a few hardcore players exaggerate :)

Next step might be run a B747-400D and/or A300 airline out of Tokyo Haneda while competition uses F27 and F28 :D

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Slots
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2011, 09:44:27 AM »
Firstly - thanks for trying something different, and it has made for a very interesting start to the game.

Whilst I love this rather tough scenario, with tighter, more expensive slots, high fuel prices and high interst rates to begin with, I'm not actually sure if it will allow new players to enter successfully.

1 - The decision to start at 50% slots allowed me to build up a nice slot bank between 4am and 8am - as I chose my aircraft well. This froze out the ability of competitors to build a profitable schedule - and hastened the demise of competitors very early on.

2 - The slot-a-palooza we have today is permitting high frequency routes (I just launched a x7 daily PEK CAN service using 105 seater aircraft) to be launched with real ease.  Competing against this for a new or smaller carrier is next to impossible as the slot costs are high and frequency is key.   This can make the stronger carrier stronger and hard to compete for a weaker or new carrier.

3 -  Slots a plenty also allows for entry into secondary hubs easier, but the largest cities that dont permit second bases to be made are still secure- making carriers who choose these hubs very safe indeed once older competition drops out of the story.

4 - The restrictions on aircraft comining into the used market (why are there 237 732advs being held back for sale on the used market, but buckets of unwanted 707s available) also hinder new carrier growth -for example -  I had a new competitor in PEK, and he chose the CV990 as his aircraft - no chance he could make money, yet if he had 732s available, he could have survived.  Having to choose older aircraft ( I have a fleet of 50 or so IL-18s) also results in excessive maintenance costs, which have caught lots of people out.

So for me

1 - permit open access to all cities for second hubs
2 - the used aircraft market needs to recycle unwanted aircraft quickly
3 - slow down the growth of slots, but start at more than 50% (200% should take 10 years to achieve)
4 - keep slot prices high

In summary - this game is following the US model of slots a plenty, demanding frequency operated by small aircraft, rather than the eurasian model of restricted airports and larger aircraft.   Considering where the US aviation is in terms of profitability, I think we are in for an interesting game finale.  Efficiency is the key in this game.

Offline Silentlysailing

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Re: Slots
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2011, 03:52:52 PM »
Personally I kind of like the new slot system. To me it is more realistic as it is feasible to set up small regional airlines like in the real world. I think many people just want to run bigger aircraft. In reality why would the smaller aircraft enter service like they have? There must have been a reason for the airlines to launch smaller aircraft. I remember when during the early 90's seeing all of ASA's embraer's at DFW. I like that it makes new challenges. Plus it forces people to try new tactics.

Also with it being extremely expensive for the flagship carriers to start regional fleets, it simulates how in the real world many carriers contract the smaller carriers ie:(colgan, skywest, asa, mesaba, chautauqua).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 04:12:35 PM by Silentlysailing »

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Slots
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2011, 04:36:15 PM »
But sadly all the american carriers have gone bankrupt.  The high frequency Embraer model didnt work.  The high frequency CRJ model that replaced didnt work either.

The real world isn't just what happens in the US.

 

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