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Author Topic: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load  (Read 2273 times)

Offline VANNASENG

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Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« on: March 23, 2011, 07:22:06 AM »
Hi All

Just wonder why when we do a technical stop over, we cannot load more pax from the second point to last destination? I remember that in Travel Boom games (maybe since last year ;D ) used to allow to load pax from stop-over airport to final destination.

It will be more reality and better if I can load pax at stop-over airports!

Any ideas?

Offline Sami

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2011, 07:51:25 AM »
It will be more reality and better if I can load pax at stop-over airports!

No, it is not realistic by any means . An airline, for example, based in JFK cannot fly to Rome and pick up more passengers in London (ie. sell tickets Rome-London).


Domestic sectors, and intra-EU flights after 1997 is different thing, and they will be modeled later on.

Online elvis141

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 09:00:20 AM »
There is airlines from other parts of the world which has the rights to sell ticket on the inter european flights for exampel Kuwait Airlines between FCO and CDG. LAN between MAD CDG

Offline Sami

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2011, 09:02:17 AM »
Those are exceptions, and agreed on government vs. government bilateral agreements (which are not going to be modeled as there are thousands of them, but only very few of them actually have any such extended rights).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 09:05:17 AM by sami »

Boomer Aires

  • Former member
Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2011, 11:06:10 AM »
Additionally it is should be possible to fly -for example - from EDDF/FRA to SAEZ/EZE via SBGR/GRU and to sell tickets an pick up pax between FRA-GRU or GRU/FRA.

It can be seen as:
FRA-EZE-FRA
FRA-SGU-FRA

Jps

  • Former member
Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 11:34:34 AM »
Additionally it is should be possible to fly -for example - from EDDF/FRA to SAEZ/EZE via SBGR/GRU and to sell tickets an pick up pax between FRA-GRU or GRU/FRA.

It can be seen as:
FRA-EZE-FRA
FRA-SGU-FRA
That will be possible if the airline is based in Brazil and it flies EZE-GRU as domestic flight. However, a German-based airline will not be able to fly that, only direct FRA-EZE and FRA-SGU.

Sandager

  • Former member
Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 01:11:57 PM »
 eehhmm to be best of my knowledge American air carriers do have traffic rights to fly intra European flights. And also pick up pax in Europe, before continuing the flight to another European country.
 Was it last year, or 2009, that United operated LHR-BRU-LHR with a T7. Purely as a  means to keep their slot in LHR.
 
 It is a pity that the A-B-C-A rounting is lost. It favours operators out of big airports, or at least makes it more difficult, and boring, to set up an airline in a small airport.

 I understand the reason for not allowing this, Sami. But to be honest..... The game is in NO WAY simulating real airline operation. Many things has been mentioned as to how it differs from real life, like it is not possible to operate a regional carrier/airline operating only small aircraft, profitmargins are ridiculously high and so on. So you keep to the simulation in one way and not in others.

 Please understand me correctly. I like the game.... Heck I love the game. I spend way to much time here, but for me it is a game. Nothing near real life simulation.

Boomer Aires

  • Former member
Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 01:38:44 PM »
That will be possible if the airline is based in Brazil and it flies EZE-GRU as domestic flight. However, a German-based airline will not be able to fly that, only direct FRA-EZE and FRA-SGU.

Lufthansa has done this over decade.
The point is, they only drop off pax on the way down to Buenos Aires at GRU, and pick up pax on the way back. There are no pax boarding additionaly for GRU - EZE
or EZE - GRU.
It's the 2nd Freedon of the air - a "tech-stop" - in combination with the 3rd and 4th freedom of the air.
(Third and fourth freedom rights are almost always granted simultaneously in bilateral agreements between countries)
I don't see a problem with this. Lufthansa was just only an example and there are much more.

Sami, what about the possibility to add the 5th freedom (on some routes)?
ICAO: Fifth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, granted by one State to another State to put down and to take on, in the territory of the first State, traffic coming from or destined to a third State (also known as a Fifth Freedom Right).

[...]
It is a pity that the A-B-C-A rounting is lost. It favours operators out of big airports, or at least makes it more difficult, and boring, to set up an airline in a small airport.

 I understand the reason for not allowing this, Sami. But to be honest..... The game is in NO WAY simulating real airline operation. Many things has been mentioned as to how it differs from real life, like it is not possible to operate a regional carrier/airline operating only small aircraft, profitmargins are ridiculously high and so on. So you keep to the simulation in one way and not in others.
[...]
+1
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:18:16 PM by Boomer Aires »

Offline Sami

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 01:51:43 PM »
Sami, what about the possibility to add the 5th freedom (on some routes)?

No, they won't be modeled as such data is not fully publically available and there are dozens or hundreds of such exceptions and agreements.

Online EYguy

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 05:17:08 AM »
5th freedom right are a mess, especially because sami would need to re-model the whole demand model for a route... Just think about all those pax flying EK or EY, on a more direct route than BA and with lower costs, because of the transport policy of the UAE... I reckon that it would be nice, but there's still lot of work to be done before sami could start working on the 5th freedom right.

And no way we should go beyond the 5th freedom right anyway: all the other agreements (6th, 7th and 8th) are on a case by case basis and this would spark a frigging fight between players to open rotues before others...

Edo

Offline Frederik

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 10:35:48 AM »
Without going to 5th freedom rights what would be nice (and realistic) would be the following:

1. A-B-C route with traffic from A to B and from A to C this would be particularly good for long haul routes from other than major airports

2. A-B-C-A "triangular" routes with traffic from A to B, A to C, B to A, and C to A - many short haul routes in Asia and Africa operate in that way

The planning tools are there the only issue is the demand model
Swiss quality all over the world

L1011fan

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 07:30:09 PM »
When version 1.3 comes out, I'm told we'll be able to do that again. Just no cabotage where foreign carriers fly domestic routes in another country. Hated that. Air Transylvania or whatever won't be able to fly JFK-LAX for revenue. It'll be a "dead" leg. Sorry for the pun. ;D

Online EYguy

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 06:33:24 AM »
Frederik, if you fly from A to C through B, it's a 5th freedom right... Especially if you keep the same flight number and plane/deplane pax in B! :) The problem, as you said, is to model the demand from A to C but you would have to "connect" the demands between A&B and then B&C and that's why sami can't do that until he finds a solution for that... I think the current engine version is still to "simple" to support something like that...

Btw, to everyone, I would not mind to see some other feats fixed before that: like changing seat maps with lower costs (why does the system have me changing ALL THE SEATS when I'm just varying the amount of seats between my service classes?!). More to come... :)

Boomer Aires

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 09:08:54 AM »
Well, I don't think its a big block of code or a complicated condition.
The bigger problem will be how to make a good overview for such flights.

The condition is simple as Frederik said under point 2.
And it does not affect the 5th freedom of the air.


Without going to 5th freedom rights what would be nice (and realistic) would be the following:

1. A-B-C route with traffic from A to B and from A to C this would be particularly good for long haul routes from other than major airports

2. A-B-C-A "triangular" routes with traffic from A to B, A to C, B to A, and C to A - many short haul routes in Asia and Africa operate in that way

The planning tools are there the only issue is the demand model

In a few words, I can be seen as A-B-A and A-C-A in one flight without any boarding pax for B to C

This will be useful for airlines operating out of smaller airports with a moderate pax demand on a singe A-B-A route (also on long haul flights).
It will allow player to compete with airlines at larger airports.

L1011fan

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 05:25:59 AM »
A-B-C-B-A is very useful as well. Or will be when the capability returns.

Online EYguy

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2011, 06:51:10 AM »
In reality ABCBA is the exception, not the rule, so I can't see why we should implement this feat once again... It disrupts competition!

Boomer Aires

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2011, 07:40:44 AM »
A-B-C-B-A is very useful as well. Or will be when the capability returns.

This would only work intrastate/-region (like EU) or as technical fuelstop on long routes (without pax boarding between B-C-B not to interfere with the 5th freedom).

In reality ABCBA is the exception, not the rule, so I can't see why we should implement this feat once again... It disrupts competition!

I don't agree with this. ABCBA is not an exception.
For smaller airlines this is a proven business model. Even large airlines use this as a tool for fleet and route optimization.
And I can't see where it disrupts competition-actually it could be an improvement for airlines operating out of smaller airports.

Online EYguy

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2011, 12:15:28 PM »
It is allowed in Europe and in other "economic common areas" (to name one, Australia-New Zealand).

And, talking about competition, I could mention: Canada Government vs Singapore Airlines (basically, they forced SQ out of the canadian market). ACCC vs Singapore Airlines (they did not allowed SQ to operate transpacific flights from SIN to any aussie airport and then on to the USA). Same story for Emirates for some flights to Canada and Etihad, same story.

If you want to live in an ideal world, I'm sorry but airwaysim it is far from it! ;) And there's no such a thing like an ABCBA from say, DXB to JFK to LAX and return. That's why I can't accept such a thing in this game. If you can't get into a big apo (it happened to me) it's not your problem. You just can't see any new airline spawning in LHR which is already crowded and at capacity! :)

Sandager

  • Former member
Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2011, 01:56:39 PM »
 A-B-C-B-A routings happens many places.

 The new Asky in West Africa is a good example. It can only exist because of these routings. Thai Airways operate, or did recently, BKK-TPE-ICN and also BKK-HKG-ICN. SQ operates, or did recently, SIN-ICN-SFO. Just a few examples. There were plenty more of such examples in Asia at least.  So the routings are not uncommon at all.

 Agreed airwaysim in not ideal. Or maybe it is. It depends on the eyes watching..... However airwaysim is NOT a simulation of real life. Far from it. So no need to not make improvements to enhance the game for the participants.

Boomer Aires

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Re: Technical stop-over: No more pax allowed to load
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2011, 02:16:26 PM »
Just one question EYguy:
Are talking about taking about carrying passengers from B to C and on they way back (outside "economic common areas") ?

If YES than I agree with you. It would be the total liberalization of air transportation or would be the implementation of the 5th freedom of the air
If NOT here just an example to clarify some points (again, without affecting the 5th freedom of the air)

ADEP (Airport of depature)
ADES (Destination airport)

Scenario:
ADEP:    Barcelona
ADES 1: Brasilia (pax demand for BCN-BSB 120pax)
ADES 2: Bogota (pax demand for BCN-BOG 200pax)

I plan the route with a A330
In Barcelona I pick up all pax for South America

1st sector: BCN-BSB 320pax only drop of 120pax
2nd sector: BSB-BOG 200pax (NO additional pax for BOG)
3rd sector: BOG-BSB 200pax for BCN (NO additional pax for BSB)
4th sector: BSB-BCN 320pax (pick up 120pax)

So in this scenario I can optimize my routes and use a single A330. It does not make sence to fly this with two A330s or B757-200,...
The airline is not making any competition on the route BSB-BOG-BSB and all flights a compatible with the 2nd freedom.

And I know airwaysim is not ideal, but we can try to make it better, or?
 


 

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