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Author Topic: All Planes Gone Already????  (Read 17767 times)

Offline alexgv1

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #200 on: March 20, 2011, 05:36:22 PM »
I respect Sami's workd but I'm nto going to say all the time "Oh, thank you Sami, thank you for this perfect game........." if I consider the game has problems. With respect and calmly but I pay, so I have the right to complain. It is business.

Well said; too many people forget this.
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline Beni

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #201 on: March 20, 2011, 07:32:42 PM »
I am not arguing your right to complain, nor am I saying you do not have a right to an opinion.

I am, however, saying that that 2 year old airline with 400 ordered planes is the exception, not the rule. AWS is realistic in more ways than it is not. In the end, it IS a game, and in all games there is a way to exploit and gain an advantage.

But, that was not your complaint in the post I replied to. The complaint was you had to wait 3 years for a "good" aircraft, the high costs of TU-204's and IL-96's was unrealistic, and Sami "had" to do something about it. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect your opinion. I may have come across as harsh, so I apologize for that. My point was, specifically in reply to your complaints, that there is NOT a 3 year wait for a "good" plane, there is a 3 year wait for the planes you want. There are several planes that are far better than the TU-204 and IL-96 that can be had in under a year, and in several cases under 6 months. If you want A320's, 737's, A330's, etc, order some, get in line. In the mean time, order something as a stop gap--717's instead of 73G's, A300's instead of A330's--and replace them with the "better" plane after 3 years. This is a long game world, and as time goes on, the order books will ease up and quality used aircraft will be available on the board.

Don



I dont want to argue this "ad eternum"  :) Once again, I respect Sami's work and I like this game. I am playing here from the first non beta world and I'm playing other airline simulation online games. I have to say this one is my favourite game but it has many things to change or to implement.

The most important problem is that you cant say a player (if you want to succes) that he/she has to stay 3 game years (27 real days aprox.) looking for the computer doing nothing waiting for the plane he/she want. You cant argue that there are other kind of planes, the players (clients) want 737 and the clients are allways right. :) It is easy...

I bet that most of the 500 players want to run an airline plenty of 737s and they pay for fun, and an airline plenty of 737s is fun for them.
I have run regional airlines with props in other games and this can be very funny, but I understand that most people want to run a Brithis Airways type airline.

If you dont give the clients what they want, the clients will go to buy to other place. This is a business, Sami's business, and his clients want to fly with a perfect 737 or A3xx.

Offline Sami

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #202 on: March 20, 2011, 08:12:32 PM »
Yes, I think we all agree on the point (me too), but instead of that I'd very much like to hear some potential ideas and ways to develop it (as usual refer to feature rq. forum). As ideas and brainstorming help me a lot.

Offline Wing Commander Chad Studdington

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #203 on: March 20, 2011, 08:58:58 PM »
Maybe there should be a filter on who can buy used a/c.

How about if an airline has 'x' amount of a/c in service and 'y' amount of new a/c on order you cannot buy used a/c as soon as they appear.

Lets says those numbers are 30 a/c and 15 a/c as a bottom limit (obviously it can be changed). So players would have to meet both their criteria before this filter applied to them. We could make a guess that airlines in that state would have enough money to snap up anything they wanted straight away and take the used a/c from the poorer airlines that need them. Airlines that match that filter would then not be allowed to buy any a/c that has been on the used market for less than 3/6/12/18/24 real hours (whichever seems most suitable). This would allow for smaller players to browse aircraft in less haste when they appear safe in the knowledge some super airline is not going to just appear and buy a plane from right under their noses. After an a/c has been on the used market for long enough anyone can buy it.

That may give smaller airlines a chance to get 'good' a/c and also stop the mistake that I'm sure many have made when buying used a/c in a rush and ending up with an a/c that has barely any time until a C or D check or has a ridiculously low condition.

Offline N54E90

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #204 on: March 20, 2011, 10:08:46 PM »
Perhaps a limit on fleet types that gradually broadens as time passes. For example, in year 1 an airline may only fly 3 fleet types, year 2 an airline may fly 4 fleet types etc. etc. until the restriction is removed.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #205 on: March 20, 2011, 10:29:23 PM »
Fleet commonality is supposed to have that effect, with the hope that airlines which don't restrict their fleet groups will BK.
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Offline Beni

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #206 on: March 20, 2011, 10:37:14 PM »
Three ideas:

- AI alirlines in the most important HUBs. This will avoid the unrealistic growth of some airlines that overtake the new AC market with orders of hundreds of planes. If they have to compete against AI airlines their growth will be slower and, of course, more close to reality. The entering of AI airlines could give the game a realistic touch as competition is present since the beginning.
- A limit on new AC orders. At least in the first years of game (5-10) an airline can not put big new AC orders. (Maybe we should define what is "big".)
- Less airlines per game world. All we can agree that 500 airlines in a game world can not exist without problems. With the entering of AI airlines, the limit should be not more than 200-250 airlines.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #207 on: March 20, 2011, 11:01:34 PM »
- Less airlines per game world. All we can agree that 500 airlines in a game world can not exist without problems. With the entering of AI airlines, the limit should be not more than 200-250 airlines.

It was going well until this.

In my opinion, it is the competition which makes this sim so entertaining. If there is nobody to compete against, then it's no fun.
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L1011fan

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #208 on: March 20, 2011, 11:07:43 PM »
It was going well until this.

In my opinion, it is the competition which makes this sim so entertaining. If there is nobody to compete against, then it's no fun.
It needs to be wittled down a bit. Period. :P

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #209 on: March 20, 2011, 11:17:05 PM »
It needs to be wittled down a bit. Period. :P

I disagree completely. If I was the developer of this sim, I would introduce real competition, not the pseudo-competition crap with frequency, CI, and slots. But then again, I'm not the developer, so the most I can hope to do is to respectfully pass on my opinion to him and hope that he listens.
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Offline Beni

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #210 on: March 21, 2011, 12:28:18 AM »
It was going well until this.

In my opinion, it is the competition which makes this sim so entertaining. If there is nobody to compete against, then it's no fun.

If you are agree with AI airlines, it is impossible to play a game with AI lines (200? 300?) and 500 players.


And, what are you telling when you speak of "real" competition?

Online bleedfax18

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #211 on: March 21, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »
If you are agree with AI airlines, it is impossible to play a game with AI lines (200? 300?) and 500 players.

Maybe a solution to this would be to start with 300 players plus 200 AI airlines. Once competition get's going and the AI airlines start to disappear (IIRC Sami said that those AI airlines would be designed to fail somehow), then you could open up more spaces to get to 500 players in total. This could happen in two ways: Either open a new spot for a player as soon as an AI airline declares bankruptcy, or wait for a total of 10/20/50 of such instances to happen and then open up that amount of spots for players. In that way there would be the possibility for a big bunch of players to enter a game world later in time (but with not as big airlines around as it is the case now).
CEO of INterFly

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #212 on: March 21, 2011, 12:45:15 AM »
If you are agree with AI airlines, it is impossible to play a game with AI lines (200? 300?) and 500 players.


And, what are you telling when you speak of "real" competition?

Competing on price.

Also, i think that having 500 players start along with AI airlines wouldn't be too bad, because just as  players would drive the AI airlines out of business, they can drive each other out too ;)
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altmants

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #213 on: March 21, 2011, 05:42:16 AM »
Here is a solution..............

Have all production lines of previous models available. Let the supply/demand determine when the production line will close. For example, If the B737-300/400/500 was available, I'm sure a lot of people would buy that model. Allow the MD-83 series to be open as well. Let the players ordering history determine when that production like will close.  If everyone keeps ordering the MD-83 then production line continues, if people slowly move on to B737 or A320s then the MD-83 will close.

And yes, even have the the B727 production line open. Even the DC-10! MD-11! DC-9!

I know certain production lines were CLOSED before the game starts, but let them be open, and see which ones players pick and which production lines will close. It will offer a MUCH MUCH wider selection of aircraft for the start of the game.  As time goes on, players will determine by supply/demand which ones will stay and which ones will go.

OR if you want to avoid confusion, create an AI Aircraft Manufacturer and call it whatever you want, and have it make planes with same stats as MD-83, DC-9, etc.

alenkacz

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #214 on: March 21, 2011, 11:17:01 AM »
I'm leaving Airwaysim today. The lack of aircraft is totally unrealistic. In the entire world there is not a single 737 or DC9 to lease? They have been in production for decades! Where are they all. To have any chance with this sim you must be the very first palyer and lease the few meager aircraft alloted for the scenerio. I have 25 games credits if anyone wants them.

Sandager

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #215 on: March 21, 2011, 11:58:51 AM »
I'm leaving Airwaysim today. The lack of aircraft is totally unrealistic. In the entire world there is not a single 737 or DC9 to lease? They have been in production for decades! Where are they all. To have any chance with this sim you must be the very first palyer and lease the few meager aircraft alloted for the scenerio. I have 25 games credits if anyone wants them.

 Yes the used aircraft market is tight. very tight. Give up if you want. Or fight your chance. It is a game, as others have stated. the market will slowly open up, and more aircrafts will become available.
 I find it funny this hypocracy about the used market. I have in an earlier world critisized the structure of the game, more specifically the new aircraft market but not only the new aircraft market. Back then no one found anything to be wrong. Rather people supported the structure as it was, and it is the same structure today. Now people fall on each other to critisize.

 But imagine a game where every player could the any kind of aircraft the same moment they ordered it. It would be a darn boring game too. So I would stay here, check up on the used market, and take whatever is available, short lease only so you can dump the aircraft again without to hefty a fine. Fight it, it can be entertaining. Don't waste your credits........


 

Online mtnlion

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #216 on: March 21, 2011, 12:46:11 PM »
I'm leaving Airwaysim today. The lack of aircraft is totally unrealistic. In the entire world there is not a single 737 or DC9 to lease? They have been in production for decades! Where are they all. To have any chance with this sim you must be the very first palyer and lease the few meager aircraft alloted for the scenerio. I have 25 games credits if anyone wants them.
Good bye!  ;D

In real world they have to wait real years and months and weeks and days. Here in Airwaysim day is only 35minutes which means one year is only ~9 IRL days. I understand some people don't have that kind of patience, but as of now, that is needed if you want to play this game successfully.

And if you have any good solutions to 'the problem', I'm sure Sami listens.

Jps

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #217 on: March 21, 2011, 12:59:07 PM »
It seems that this game is opposite to others;

In previous games, every airline pretty much expanded as much as they could in the first couple of years, after which the airlines couldn't do much anymore and let them run on their own, or left the game.

In this game, however, the trend is that the first few years are for (some/most?) very slow, and only after that the game picks up. For those used to the old system this probably is a huge (and bad) difference, but imho it closer relates to real life (disclaimer: I am not in this gameworld). Of course the bad thing still is, that few players have obtained huge amounts of planes while others have nothing, giving them a lot of time to grow before others can pick up.

So, in longer term I see this kind of gameplay better, because it gives the airlines something to do for the whole 4 months the game lasts. The only thing left to do, is to analyze what exactly made this game different from others, and to make sure every1 gets planes at about the same rate.

Offline Sami

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #218 on: March 21, 2011, 01:50:52 PM »
The lack of aircraft is totally unrealistic. In the entire world there is not a single 737 or DC9 to lease?

Supply vs. demand. They are all sold already, simple. But as mentioned by others it is getting better when the demand for planes slows down soon.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 01:56:04 PM by sami »

Andrebr

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Re: All Planes Gone Already????
« Reply #219 on: March 21, 2011, 02:10:57 PM »
Im new here but I think the game is good as is (can be better balanced but is very good) and should not be modified because some player dont like. I saw the problem from the start and planned to buy new aircraft thinking in a long term sucess. Im not expecting to get impressive results at the end but Im enjoying the game whith this model. Changing the basics of the model now would be unfair I think. And, principally, the problem is the same for all, the more competent are more sucessfull. Is a question of  startegy.

 

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