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Online Airline Management Simulation
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Author Topic: done now leaving  (Read 2142 times)

Offline hershey1

  • Members
  • Posts: 412
done now leaving
« on: January 06, 2011, 07:22:30 PM »
This is now twice that i have changed hubs due to a larger airline,
swooping in and using all thier muscles, and taking over a city as
his second hub, i find that this is ok but there should be an
limited amout of expansions, even to help out a little guy, since this
airline open up his second hub city, he has flooded every market with, ATR's
so I will be leaving this game, as I find it is a waste of my $$$ and time.


thanks everyone who I have enjoyed playing with


Dirty

Offline ACDennison

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  • Posts: 317
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 09:36:34 PM »
Out of interest, where were you at?  Curious how big or small the cities were... and whether the majority of user's would consider them as second bases etc
 

Offline CVACEO

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  • Posts: 601
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 10:07:31 PM »
I feel your frustration on one hand, and also acknowledge that competition is part of the challenge of AWS on the other.

That said, I (for one) would definitely support the idea of being forced to choose what type of airline you intend to operate when you create it at the start: regional, national or international carrier.  Regional carriers would be required to start in Class 3 airports or smaller, national carriers in Class 4 or larger and international carriers in Class 5.  Also, staffinf requirements and default salaries would be less for regional, than for national and so forth.  This way, AWS would provide a mechanism for operating a successful regional airline by "protecting" them from infringement from national and internation carriers.  I and others have suggested this in the past but I don't know how feasible it is for Sami to implement in the current of forthcoming game engine versions.

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 05:24:39 AM »
I feel your frustration on one hand, and also acknowledge that competition is part of the challenge of AWS on the other.

That said, I (for one) would definitely support the idea of being forced to choose what type of airline you intend to operate when you create it at the start: regional, national or international carrier.  Regional carriers would be required to start in Class 3 airports or smaller, national carriers in Class 4 or larger and international carriers in Class 5.  Also, staffinf requirements and default salaries would be less for regional, than for national and so forth.  This way, AWS would provide a mechanism for operating a successful regional airline by "protecting" them from infringement from national and internation carriers.  I and others have suggested this in the past but I don't know how feasible it is for Sami to implement in the current of forthcoming game engine versions.

Amen.

Offline TranceAvia

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 06:59:32 PM »
Amen +1

Offline hershey1

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  • Posts: 412
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 08:23:30 PM »
Thanks guys I was based in in DCA , with a fleet iof 9 DC9-10/15/20,
flying to small cities ie ALB, ROC,PVD,and then this other airline started
to flood these small 70 pax market with 2-3 ATR's a day so I cant compete,
what let my last 10 credits run out then leave.

 thanks guys and enjoy

corsair78

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 12:39:44 AM »
hershey, I am feeling ur frustruation... I am in a similar position, where the big fish who settled in at the start of the game (I did start late) has took over of all the slots (cannot blame him though), so I wonder what's the point of continuation of this game. Just to make money and survive it to the end? Well I could do that... I am making some money after all, but there is no challenge in that.

Airwaysim as it is, is a little bit unrealistic, and non survivable for newcomers  :-\ There are some serious flaws that need to be adressed imho.

I am also not going to get extra credits for making it to the end.

anyways... tough luck  :P ;D

GDK

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 05:26:13 AM »

Airwaysim as it is, is a little bit unrealistic, and non survivable for newcomers  :-\ There are some serious flaws that need to be adressed imho.


Yes it is unrealistic, you can't expect it to be the same as in real life. But it is improving towards what we want. This sim is more to technical rather than business or any other thing. So far the developer is doing quiet well on the technical side and I think he will move on to make it better on other sides as well.

Just to let you know, people always telling the game is not survivable for newcomers but it is totally wrong.
I have to admit that not every newcomer survive but that is depending on how you manage it. When you come late, you should manage it the way start late, you can't do the things you used to when you start early. I tried start together with the game, I tried start late, but I success both.

Look at my Asianair Wings today. I started 2 and half years late and I have a huge airline at Jakarta flying almost all the routes there. Yet, I manage to bring him down and became the boss in Indonesia. I believe I'm not the only one manage to handle it. There are a lot of experienced player here and we can share our knowledge on how to start late. It is not the system that causing us unable to survive, but they way we play it.

No doubt there are plenty of improvement needed, but we too need to do our part.

Offline ZombieSlayer

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2011, 05:30:01 AM »
While I agree it is a bit unrealistic, it is NOT unsurvivable for a latecomer. Lets be honest, DCA is not a second hub. It is a very popular airport with a lot of demand, and decent premium demand too. This is a city that you will have a hard time succeeding at as a small carrier, and I would reccomend not starting at an airport like National unless you have the time to operate a full blown, 120 aircraft operation and FIGHT for your airline. As a matter of fact, I would not operate an airline at ANY US, Europe, SE Asia, or Austrailla airport if I was looking to remain small. You want a small carrier? Go to Africa or South America where there is minimal competiton and your chances of being bothered by a big carrier are small (not that there is not competition in those areas, but the truth is you will not see 6 airlines battling it out at GIG or LIM like you always do at LHR and NRT).

That being said, I have had much success in the past at smaller airports such as Xiamen (XMN) in China and Guam (GUM), a US Territory. I started at GUM 6 years into a past Modern Times game and ended up owing my entire fleet of 737NG's, 777's, and EMB-170/-195's. Best part is I was never bothered. I had to fight for individual routes, but not my base. As my time was limited for that game, it was nice to know that I could leave it for a couple days and not worry about returning to financial ruin.


So, I guess what I am trying to say is, as a newer player, find an out of the way airport to start out as. Don't jump right into a major US airport and then quit because you got beat. Learn to fight back (legally and fairly) and then take on the big boys, and don't be surprised when you start winning some of the battles  :)

Don
Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Sandager

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 08:08:57 AM »
 I just do not agree. It is easy enough to survive as a newcomer. Just be a bit creative. Look at the map of airliners. Where are these based? There are loads of airliners in the US and Europe. I have said so before. You have to look outside the big ten, or even big 20. Or more. But there are lots of options around where you can build a good sized airline and have lots of challenge as well.

 Try out Africa.....

hershey, I am feeling ur frustruation... I am in a similar position, where the big fish who settled in at the start of the game (I did start late) has took over of all the slots (cannot blame him though), so I wonder what's the point of continuation of this game. Just to make money and survive it to the end? Well I could do that... I am making some money after all, but there is no challenge in that.

Airwaysim as it is, is a little bit unrealistic, and non survivable for newcomers  :-\ There are some serious flaws that need to be adressed imho.

I am also not going to get extra credits for making it to the end.

anyways... tough luck  :P ;D

brasidas422

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2011, 11:28:35 AM »
I had a hilarous blow up at CDG and had to start over. I went to BAltimoe where a completely established player had NEARLY EVERY route covered. The few I had to myself he flooded to try to drive me out. I successfully built an airline with competition on 90% of all the routes and I am doing fine. It went so slow I almost gave up but once I got around 10 to 15 aircraft by clawing and scraping I have my head above water. If your routes are flooded with ATRs why were you flying a less profitable plane on that route in the first place? Sorry if I sound critical but you know they bigs are coming. Why don't you build smart from day one? Perhpas you did and I have not experinced this but I Baltimore is a packed airport and 2 airlines manage a homebase there WITH it being a hub as well for an airline. We can't all be Owl or Dantes or LLL. Bully for those guys for playing well and they are the United, Lufthansa, etc. of "our" world. The rest of us are Southwest or god forbid, the TWA's and Pan Ams.

For those who think you get hosed when you airport gets flooded with planes, read about the start of Southwest Airlines sometime. This is a brutal business and the rough side is simulated here. Not prefectly, but still, I think it is great. Next game world I hope to be a big, and after what I have learned on my "no free lunch" experiement in Baltimore I hope I manage to.

Offline schro

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2011, 08:19:28 PM »
hershey, I am feeling ur frustruation... I am in a similar position, where the big fish who settled in at the start of the game (I did start late) has took over of all the slots (cannot blame him though), so I wonder what's the point of continuation of this game. Just to make money and survive it to the end? Well I could do that... I am making some money after all, but there is no challenge in that.

Airwaysim as it is, is a little bit unrealistic, and non survivable for newcomers  :-\ There are some serious flaws that need to be adressed imho.

I am also not going to get extra credits for making it to the end.

anyways... tough luck  :P ;D

Not all the "big fish" settle in early in the game. In LAX, there was a rather epic battle between myself and another airline that nearly bankrupted both of us that played out over the first couple of game years. It signifcantly hindered by expansion in the early game because we were trading blows.

As for late comers, I've entered several game worlds about halfway through and have done very well. Typically by then the used market is much more liquid and fuel prices are climbing to shake out the poorly run airlines. In Air Travel Boom that just completed recently, I started with 10 years remaining and finished the game with top revenue, profit, ASM, RSM, passengers carried, fleet size (maybe number two - I don't recall if I passed Dantes), etc. If you feel trapped in yoru current city without much to do but make a little money, you may want to experiment with the game engine. See what happens when you compete on a route, open a base or try out different fleet types.  Then in the next game world that you join, you'll be ready to boot some head.  Of coruse, the other option is bankrupting and going to a different base (you get 3 freebies).

I had a hilarous blow up at CDG and had to start over. I went to BAltimoe where a completely established player had NEARLY EVERY route covered. The few I had to myself he flooded to try to drive me out. I successfully built an airline with competition on 90% of all the routes and I am doing fine. It went so slow I almost gave up but once I got around 10 to 15 aircraft by clawing and scraping I have my head above water. If your routes are flooded with ATRs why were you flying a less profitable plane on that route in the first place? Sorry if I sound critical but you know they bigs are coming. Why don't you build smart from day one? Perhpas you did and I have not experinced this but I Baltimore is a packed airport and 2 airlines manage a homebase there WITH it being a hub as well for an airline. We can't all be Owl or Dantes or LLL. Bully for those guys for playing well and they are the United, Lufthansa, etc. of "our" world. The rest of us are Southwest or god forbid, the TWA's and Pan Ams.

You're right in building smart from day one. You've got to always be prepared for fuel to jump to $1000+ even if its cruising in the $100-200 range.  You've also got to be in a dominating position in your home base to discourage others from visiting to run you out of business. Make sure you're using ALL of the prime time slots so its not efficient for them to do multiple flights per day against your larger planes because the slots are gone. The current fuel prices in the game are so low that only the worst run airlines have a chance at running out of money. Things will get interesting and airlines will drop like flies if fuel climbs to $500+.  THen you'll know who the good CEOs are around here.


For those who think you get hosed when you airport gets flooded with planes, read about the start of Southwest Airlines sometime. This is a brutal business and the rough side is simulated here. Not prefectly, but still, I think it is great. Next game world I hope to be a big, and after what I have learned on my "no free lunch" experiement in Baltimore I hope I manage to.

I reccomend the book "Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits That Plunged the Airlines into Chaos" by Thomas Petzinger for said history lesson.

Southwest was a bit different as their first 4 years were in courts trying to show that the US regulation didn't apply to them because they only flew intra-state in Texas. They were able to set their fares and schedules whereas their competition (AA/Braniff/et al) had to get approval from the CAB to wipe their nose.

brasidas422

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 05:45:44 PM »
Actually I have read that one. Stoked my interest so much when I found this game I started playing. It is well written and entertaining. MY thoughts about Southwest came from that book in fact. I really hope in future versions of the game pricing will matter more. Would love to be able to choose strategies like being an Emirates or a Southwest. It would really even out game play to see prices and be able to compete. I think it would slow the gigantic companies down initially. Let you Schrol and Dantes slug it out over the Chicago and LA route, and all the guys who are bigs. Egos would flare up just like the did with Frank Lorenzo and company and when the bigs start hammering each other a little guy gets a chance to exploit it. Most will fail- like the real world. But I think that would be cool

maumausi

  • Former member
Re: done now leaving
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 09:12:52 AM »
well I'm leaving too, as the big guys have yet again found me in my little out of the way place and swamped my routes before I can start getting cash in and get ahead, I'm just dieing a slow death.

I really wish the developers would do something to limit the cash piles and advantages that players have that start on day 1. Join later and you've no chance. It's really a downer.

I would suggest regressive income tax, ie the larger you are the higher the tax rates. I would also suggest limiting players to 50 routes per base or so. Also give small players a non-compete period on used planes, ie small players can get used planes for X weeks before the big players are allowed to buy or lease them. How about annual slot renewal fee's, where the larger you are the larger the annual fee.

If I can't get in on day 1 on a new game I'm not playing again ..

Simon

Offline Sanabas

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 10:44:18 AM »
well I'm leaving too, as the big guys have yet again found me in my little out of the way place and swamped my routes before I can start getting cash in and get ahead, I'm just dieing a slow death.

I really wish the developers would do something to limit the cash piles and advantages that players have that start on day 1. Join later and you've no chance. It's really a downer.

I would suggest regressive income tax, ie the larger you are the higher the tax rates. I would also suggest limiting players to 50 routes per base or so. Also give small players a non-compete period on used planes, ie small players can get used planes for X weeks before the big players are allowed to buy or lease them. How about annual slot renewal fee's, where the larger you are the larger the annual fee.

If I can't get in on day 1 on a new game I'm not playing again ..

Simon

I joined DOTM 1 game month after you, and am doing fine. I'd say you're bleeding money & dying a slow death because you've only got 5 planes and they're from 3 different fleets. 3 of your routes have no competition and room to expand, 2 more have minimal competition, the only 2 routes with heavy competition are 800+ pax per day routes, and you're only supplying ~450 & ~250 pax per day on them. On the first, you're competing with 2 other airlines younger than yours, not someone who was in on day 1 and has bucketloads of cash on hand. On the second you're competing with a big airline, but they didn't join until 4 years into the game, either. And even if they opened their route after yours, why on earth shouldn't they? It's a route with 800 pax per day and only 250 pax per day provided by you. That's not flooding your route to hurt you, that's putting seats on a route that has heaps of space. And since the route planning says you have 27% of the pax, I'm guessing your load factors on AEP-GIG are actually pretty good. You're going bankrupt because of staff costs and fleet commonality, not because of competition.

There's still heaps of opportunity to join now and build a successful airline from what I can see.

Offline type45

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 05:28:17 PM »
I agree Sanabas that your fleet groups cost your life. You should try to use only one or two types of planes at the very beginning of your airline, try to fill up empty routes before move into routes with heavy competition.

SABE is a good base, although it is not easy to have long haul routes, the international demand inside S. American is still very big, also domestic demands. I've ended up in bankruptcy in my 2nd world, and I rebuilt my airline at SAEZ, using the chance of a big airline fall. It is not a very big airline, but at lease I can have more than 60 planes and operate a number of routes to NA and Asia. Later I use these data I get from here, input to my next world and built the biggest S. American airlines in that world. What you need here is some skills and make the right decision, especially on choosing planes and control no. of fleet group. There are a lot of good aircrafts in the market now, if you still have time and chance to restart, I think you can try one more time :)

Offline spiff23

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Re: done now leaving
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 06:19:09 AM »
keep in mind that every big airline operator was once a newcomer themselves (i.e., don't get discouraged...learn from the things that happened).  Like others have said pick an out of the way airport to get the hang of competition.  In one of my first games after the trial )and several since), I had a series of failures and frustrations.  I picked Calcutta, of all places, well into the game and finished with one of the largest airlines. 

 

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