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Author Topic: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport  (Read 5432 times)

Offline Alien

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Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« on: November 22, 2010, 08:59:51 PM »
Hello,

as Samy has posted, that he wants to implement freight in the 1.3 version, I am noting the following thoughts about it:

In another online airline game, specialised freight airlines have big trouble in competing with regular airlines, as those can take freight as an additional item and can easily offer lower fares, than normal freight carriers. This can be avoided by offering different sizes of freight items:

Like mail (units of 0,1kg each?), packages(units of 10kg each?), aircraft containers (units of 500kg each?), heavy freight (units of 5000kg each?) and superheavy freight (units of 20.000kg each?). Mail could be loaded into nearly every aircraft, for packages You need already a larger freight room, like in an E170 or a DC-9, for aircraft containers You need at least a standardbody aircraft like an A320 or a 737, for heavy freight, You need already a specialised freight aircraft (like a 737-200F or a DHC-5) or a Combined freight/pax aircraft (like a 747-200CF). For superheavy freight You need a freight aircraft, like an AN-124, a Short Belfast or an Il-76.

Each airport should only offer and/or accept only some different kinds of freight. Mail and packages should be offered and accepted nearly everywhere, aircraft containers at all large airports, heavy freight only at airports with extra freight terminal, superheavy freight only at selected airports with heavy industry in the area.

There are two versions for filling an aircraft: Variant one would be, You can only fill the largest type possible for the route (example, an aircraft with 11.250kg freight capacity would fill two units of heavy freight or 22 units of aircraft containers, or 1125 units of packages), variant two would be, You fill it first with the largest freight, then continue filling it with the second largest and so on... (That would allow 2 units of heavy freight plus 2 aircraft containers plus 25 units of packages). That would be for Sami to decide, how complicated he wants the system.

The freight revenue should be higher for the larger freight units.

This is just a raw drawing and is of course subject to discussion and changes.

BG
Alien

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 11:55:32 PM by sami »

Jps

  • Former member
Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 09:11:13 PM »
Those are very good thoughts.
However, the latest news tell that 1.3 won't contain any breathtaking features, so no cargo there. Hopefully in 1.4  ::)

But, the more we discuss, the more Sami will have material to work on  ;)

LOT767

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 01:37:54 AM »
This would free up slots too due to the night ops and players opting in for cargo airlines, maybe we can model the freight demand like we do pax. As you would sched. a pax flight between 0600 and 2300 for optimal hours and demand. We could make freight most optimal between 2300 and 0600 as most major freight operations happen at night?

Also, the buying of older planes that are about to be scrapped or in the 17, 18 year old + range and converting them into freighters and having the option re-engine them for better fuel economy. Imagine a Modern Times game its 2006 and there still is DC-8's and 727's in the air.....would be kinda cool!

And and a demand indicator below the pax demand showing how much cargo demand there is for that airport and so on....just throwin some idea's out there.

Ansettaddict123

  • Former member
Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 01:42:19 AM »
This would free up slots too due to the night ops and players opting in for cargo airlines, maybe we can model the freight demand like we do pax. As you would sched. a pax flight between 0600 and 2300 for optimal hours and demand. We could make freight most optimal between 2300 and 0600 as most major freight operations happen at night?

Also, the buying of older planes that are about to be scrapped or in the 17, 18 year old + range and converting them into freighters and having the option re-engine them for better fuel economy. Imagine a Modern Times game its 2006 and there still is DC-8's and 727's in the air.....would be kinda cool!

And and a demand indicator below the pax demand showing how much cargo demand there is for that airport and so on....just throwin some idea's out there.

Again, as with Alien's, great idea!
I like the idea of the optimal times! for those of us with A333s it would work exceptionally well  ;)

Offline Sami

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2010, 06:56:00 PM »
The basic problem with freight is that we have two variables,

 * volume (cubic meters/feet)
 * weight


In real life we can send a package that is 10 m3 in volume, but it can weigh from 0,5 kg to 5000 kg depending what it is. This naturally makes all the difference on to what kind of plane it can be loaded; dimensions and payload capability are the factors. And the COST of the freight is also dependant on this - airlines take the higher of the costs and charge that. If it's a light but large package, they make you pay according to the size, and vice-versa.

For the purposes of AWS we know the available volume of freight holds for aircraft, and we also know how much weight it can transport to certain distance (with full passenger load).

The tricky part is to combine the volume&weight variables into single factor that would be the "freight demand", for example "30 m3 of freight from XYZ to ZYX".

But to think of this idea further we could split freight into several categories (considered them travel classes, like C & Y & F) like suggested. But there is still a need to make a unified value (consider it an average) on what a certain volume of freight weighs (needed for payload/range stuff). For example: Light freight weighs 1 kg per 1m3, medium freight 100 kg per 1m3 and heavy freight 1000 kg per m3?

Package dimensions can't be considered as that would be complicated combined with the other stuff. But perhaps that can be simulated so that heavy freight requires a large or very large aircraft, and medium freight a medium plane, and light freight can be transported with any plane?  And 'superheavy' (ie. AN-124) freight is charter type stuff, so that won't be included.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 07:03:39 PM by sami »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2010, 08:40:50 PM »
The tricky part is to combine the volume&weight variables into single factor that would be the "freight demand", for example "30 m3 of freight from XYZ to ZYX".

This is a similar issue as passenger connection, and for this to work right, something like City/regional demand would have to be considered - this time for freight.  It might be double work to first populate the database with current data based on existing hubs (Memphis TN, Louisville KY), and then re-do it based on regional demand to allow hubs to be where players make them...

But to think of this idea further we could split freight into several categories (considered them travel classes, like C & Y & F) like suggested. But there is still a need to make a unified value (consider it an average) on what a certain volume of freight weighs (needed for payload/range stuff). For example: Light freight weighs 1 kg per 1m3, medium freight 100 kg per 1m3 and heavy freight 1000 kg per m3?

It is hard to imagine 1kg per 1m3.  Just the container weighs probably more.  Somewhere between 100kg to 250 kg per m3 might be a good ballpark for single class - and single class might be enough IMO.

Offline Frogiton

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 10:54:17 PM »
It would have to be city based demand and not airport obviously, but the base of the cargo airline shouldn't matter much. For example Memphis, TN (KMEM) is the largest cargo hub in the world despite it being relatively small in the city cargo spectrum. And as for the weight/size dilemna, maybe you could have like Sami said different classes of frieght and each city has it's own demand. The classes could be A(mail) B(toys, clothes) C(Medium-size packages) D(Large) E(Extra-Large) L(Livestock). And each will have a sub-category of cheap, valuable, very valuable, with each bringing in different profit. The problem with all this is that it seems like a lot of coding as you are basically making a whole new game because you have to implement new city cargo demand, offer Freighter versions of planes (realistic of course), and a new set of income sheet categories.
No replacement for displacement

thange

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 08:27:30 AM »
I agree on using the model of ULD's. It is a much simpler model to start with and there are already tables with the capacity of most modern aircraft. For mixed operations we only have to establish the luggage weight per ULD (it will be large ULD's since PAX luggage is not the most space efficient way of transporting things) and assign the remaining of space and payload to cargo ULD's.
There is a table in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_Load_Device

Offline Sami

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Re: Thoughts on freight transport
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 09:30:12 AM »
Using containers as freight measure is nogt an option since we have around 300 planes in db and only about 20-40 of them can use them, others are pure bulk planes.

LeoDario

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 09:49:07 PM »
Not sure this helps or not with the cargo travel classes but I think It should be divided as:

Normal Cargo
Fragile Cargo
Cold/Livestock Cargo
Explosives, Military Supplies, Troops ( If AWS ever puts wars into database, and the governments of countries recruit airlines to carry supplies, like in the world wars ).

Offline Sami

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 10:36:45 PM »
Cargo will not have classes, it's just 'cargo'.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 10:44:34 PM »
Cargo will not have classes, it's just 'cargo'.

I think that is a good decision.

Just out of curiosity, does the system currently "use up" some of the aircraft carrying capacity to simulate cargo, or is the 100% of the weight allocated to passengers?  When we have cargo option, will the system prioritize passengers and pick up cargo based on availability, or will we have to manually adjust aircraft configurations?

Offline Tom14cat14

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 04:50:12 AM »
Would we be able to have the choice to be all PAX, all cargo, and both. Or just one or the other? I look forward to seeing this in the future.
APB Airlines

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2012, 01:34:50 AM »
Would we be able to have the choice to be all PAX, all cargo, and both. Or just one or the other? I look forward to seeing this in the future.

I guess the same way as real world would be great.  Passenger aircraft would be able to carry some cargo, there would be dedicated cargo aircraft.  If a passenger flight is full of passengers, and near its range limit, cargo would be limited...

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 01:38:56 AM »
Remember some 60% of all global air cargo is carried in the bellies of passenger planes rather than dedicated cargo airlines.

(sorry cant find source where I read it from)
CEO of South Where Airlines (SWA|WH)

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2012, 01:41:58 AM »
Remember some 60% of all global air cargo is carried in the bellies of passenger planes rather than dedicated cargo airlines.

(sorry cant find source where I read it from)

Does not surprise me.  And the aircraft manufacturers are catering to this by designing passenger aircraft with larger cargo capacity...

Offline Jona L.

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 03:28:57 AM »
Does not surprise me.  And the aircraft manufacturers are catering to this by designing passenger aircraft with larger cargo capacity...

For example the 777 which IRL lives from the cargo, and would be revived in AWS, once cargo is available...

Fegelein

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2012, 01:50:56 AM »
I'm not quite sure what the software implications or what have you are, but why can't we just do it all in weight? If Plane A can carry 2 tons of cargo, and route XYZ-ABC has a demand for 10 tons of cargo a day, then 5 flights with Plane A works. It's like passengers. Or is the idea that it's got to be different than passengers and thus more tricky?

Offline NovemberCharlie

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »
I was reading through some files of an airline and how they charge for cargo.
The formula they use for chargeable cargo is volume/6000. I don't know how it works, but it gives an amount of kilograms, which can be transported at a certain fee.

I'd love to say the name of said airline, but I think they'd much appreciate it if I didn't  (If sami insists I'll pm him an excerpt)

Regards,

NC

brique

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Re: Thoughts on freight / cargo transport
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2012, 09:56:10 PM »
I was reading through some files of an airline and how they charge for cargo.
The formula they use for chargeable cargo is volume/6000. I don't know how it works, but it gives an amount of kilograms, which can be transported at a certain fee.

I'd love to say the name of said airline, but I think they'd much appreciate it if I didn't  (If sami insists I'll pm him an excerpt)

Regards,

NC

There was a sort of 'universal' unit, pre-computer days, which was once used, and may still be, in palletised distribution : it assumed an average weight for a specific volume : e.g. a 4' high standard-sized pallet will 'weigh' 250kg : in actuality, some will be heavier, some not : but, overall, it was surprisingly accurate : I do know some parcel companies use a similar, but now computer-assisted and more complex, scheme to plan capacity on inter-depot/hub trunkers.

I would suggest, for simplicity in coding, server load and game-play, a basic 'cargo unit' with a fixed 'weight/volume' which can be priced for distance flown : a/c can have available cargo-capacity topped-up using the current demand model : 'pure' cargo types would just have more capacity to be filled compared to pax-types.


 

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