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Author Topic: Slot Hogging !!!  (Read 8240 times)

virtual

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2010, 03:27:11 AM »
I will probably introduce slot quotas in v.1.3.  ie. XX new slots per year max

that is a good idea, and i wonder if it's like this in real life. But let's say after u reach your quota...and u have a single airport country....what is the future?

that will greatly  penalize singaporrean and honk kong airlines...unless you introduce the possibility to open a 2nd base in free investment countries. Let's say that some contries in the world ( ie some african or central american ones, allow companies from another nationality to operate in their territory )

Online ZombieSlayer

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2010, 03:36:22 AM »
I'm completely against slot quotas. Or, if they are introduced, there should also be a slot market, where one can buy and sell slots. Otherwise it is too restrictive!

If there is a slot market, a slot should only be allowed to be posted for sale if the slot has been in use for a predetermined amount of time. Otherwise, everyone and their brother will be grabbing every HND, LHR, CDG slot they can to make a quick buck.

Don
Co-Founder Elite Worldwide Alliance
CEO PacAir
Designated "Tier 1 Opponent"

Miltra

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2010, 03:45:22 PM »
Yes, why not. Details would have to be discussed anyway!

airplane_mech2

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2010, 10:58:24 PM »
I am based in LGW as Compass Airlines,

I can't Compete with this Slot Hogging !

Totally Un-realistic !!!

34 C-46 Commando !! total bulls##t  ! 

Sami, I loved the game when it first came out ! but now...................



http://www.compassairline.com/    This is a real airline.  I thought real airline names arent allowed?

THI

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2010, 02:45:44 PM »
i am completely against slot restrictions for airlines.
that would be not funny for those like me, which has economical success.

some players here spend more time here and they can get slots all the time if
they check the slots carefully.

jet age is the greatest game in AWS like it is.

of course sami must change some things like giving players the possibility do deal
with slots like on "ebay" f.e.....

airplane_mech2

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2010, 08:13:54 PM »
of course sami must change some things like giving players the possibility do deal
with slots like on "ebay" f.e.....


Slots don't belong to the airlines.  When the airline is done using slots they must relenquish them back to the airport.  So an "ebay" type auction wouldn't be realistic.   

Offline powi

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2010, 09:26:46 AM »
http://www.compassairline.com/    This is a real airline.  I thought real airline names arent allowed?

Real airline names are not allowed.

Here is how to report to admin if you spot one:

http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,20105.msg125597.html#msg125597

Theoden

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2010, 08:25:09 PM »
Who owns the airport?  Wouldn't that person or group in real life have an interest and say in who gets what slots and at what price?  And if there were a high demand for slots with low supply, would not airlines bid up the price of slots?  If I owned an airport, I would sell slots to the highest bidder just like anyone with a high demand but limited supply product.  If that were the case, wouldn't the use of many tiny aircraft be uneconomical as your slot costs would increase in price but still have to be spread around 30 pax per flight instead of 100 or 200?  Does the price of slots in AWS explode when there are very few slots and very high demand?  I don't think AWS models this, I think there is an arbitrary and artificially low price for slots at certain airports in AWS.  In economics, an artificially low price will tend to (maybe always) cause a shortage of supply. 

Also, the game allows an aircraft type to be successful even if it wasn't in real life, which is cool and allows more flexibility and fun.  The game adjusts to the market.  Why can't busy airports expand in response to demand?  If the demand for slots (and slot price) is high enough, it makes financial sense to add parallel runways and more gates so you can sell more slots.  At least in real life anyway. 

In real life you absolutely could, even in 2010, put 100s of tiny planes in LHR or JFK, but the enormous slot cost per flight would bankrupt you very quickly.   

Theoden

Jps

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2010, 08:33:02 PM »
Who owns the airport?  Wouldn't that person or group in real life have an interest and say in who gets what slots and at what price?  And if there were a high demand for slots with low supply, would not airlines bid up the price of slots?  If I owned an airport, I would sell slots to the highest bidder just like anyone with a high demand but limited supply product.  If that were the case, wouldn't the use of many tiny aircraft be uneconomical as your slot costs would increase in price but still have to be spread around 30 pax per flight instead of 100 or 200?  Does the price of slots in AWS explode when there are very few slots and very high demand?  I don't think AWS models this, I think there is an arbitrary and artificially low price for slots at certain airports in AWS.  In economics, an artificially low price will tend to (maybe always) cause a shortage of supply.  

Also, the game allows an aircraft type to be successful even if it wasn't in real life, which is cool and allows more flexibility and fun.  The game adjusts to the market.  Why can't busy airports expand in response to demand?  If the demand for slots (and slot price) is high enough, it makes financial sense to add parallel runways and more gates so you can sell more slots.  At least in real life anyway.  

In real life you absolutely could, even in 2010, put 100s of tiny planes in LHR or JFK, but the enormous slot cost per flight would bankrupt you very quickly.    

Theoden

Check this thread out.

Also, the slot costs do change depending on the demand for them. For example, if I fly from a big airport to small one with only a few airlines flying to, I could pay 0$ for my slots to the small airport, but over $50k for one slot on the big airport on peak hours. On less busier times, the cost could be some $25k.
But, all these costs are insignificant since they are only a one-time fee.

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 01:21:04 PM by Jps »

Offline Sami

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2010, 08:45:52 PM »
Slots are basically government property given to airlines. They are not to be resold, and actually really do not cost to get in the first place either in real life. There has been some slot trading at LHR for huge money (leasing slots, buying airlines with slots ..) but trading isn't basically allowed.

airplane_mech2

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2010, 03:34:52 AM »
In real life, it's not just the slot cost that is prohibitive.  Very small planes would fly out of an FBO and planes that are around 50 seats and above are the ones that park at the gates.  It's really the landing fees that get you.  At Atlanta, landing fees cost starting at $250 minimum and goes up from there.  Imagine what a 767 or a L-1011 would cost.  wow!

Offline bdnascar3

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2010, 01:01:14 PM »
In real Life you have conncecting passengers and gate space to worry about. An airline can have 100 slots, but if they only have ten gates they can only run ten planes an hour or so. Depending on turn around times. Also a passenger who arrives at 10 am does not want to sit around until 5 pm for a connecting flight. So the connections are grouped around these gates. Gates are owned by the airport and are leased at a restitive rate. No airport wants only one or two airlines, they want several. Airport gates could be rented and leased back to other players for specific times. In addiditon for this game I feel there should be a limit on the number of aircraft any one player can have. This would limit certian big airlines allowing others to enjoy the game more. And before you big airlines post "IRL there are no restrictions " read above again. Airports restrict airlines all the time.

Offline Sami

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2010, 04:42:06 PM »
As everyone would imagine, there are dozens and dozens of variables that control the amount of planes & pax allowed at the airport, from the number of check in desks and baggage belts to the number of runways and effectivity of air traffic control system etc. All this is impossible to model, so airport traffic flow is only restricted by the runway slots now, and in future too.

virtual

  • Former member
here is an idea i have
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2010, 04:21:44 AM »
that's a shame that JT3 is mainly a game of slot rush... there should be solutions to this. ( i allready ^posted that in a previous threat, but i post it again )

here what comes in my mind : i think that in the biggests airports, there should be a airport autority that regulates a bit more the slot attribution. And that for intance and for the development of the traffic will reserve 10 % of the slots to internationnal long haul flights.

It means that when the airports slot ability falls below 10% . Only int long haul flight can be added

this rule can be regulated ie to 5% maybe or for a period of time.  But like this it will permit to all airlines to be able to land in Heathrow/JFK and such airports, since it's much more difficult to take all the remaining slots with INT long haul flights !
 

BavarianAir

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2011, 05:47:40 PM »
At the beginning of air traffic there was a theory, that the majority of passengers would book their flight on the faster plane, if you could finish your trip just 20 minutes faster. Maybe it's possible to implement that into the game (perhaps make the time difference greater - 1 or 2 hours) . This would cause the "slot hoggers" to get rid of their old metal, because nobody would fly with their DC3s and C46s, regardless how cheap or luxurious they are or how good the company and route image is. The competitor's 707 is 3 times as fast and therefore will leave the old planes with nothing more than the last two passengers who arrived late at the airport and make them loose money. It's a natural rule: Evolve or die! And let's be honest: There's no better marketing argument than one of those sexy new jets! ;)

Offline raptorva

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2011, 01:46:41 AM »
except for where those sexy new jets would be worse.

I looked at all the jets when I was looking for an international long-haul plane and eventually chose the Bristol Britannia. ITs a turboprop yes but its far better for the routes those jets would have trouble with or just be over-supplying. Same in the regional market. If someone dumps a jumbo or something on a 200nm route currently flown by Fokkers, should the jet automatically win out because its faster from A-B and yet spends more time sitting on the ground at the airport in turnaround?

Something to think about.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2011, 02:55:10 AM »
Passengers don't sit around while the aircraft is turning, so yes, if a passenger was looking for speed, a jumbo would be better.
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Offline Sigma

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2011, 04:39:14 AM »
At the beginning of air traffic there was a theory, that the majority of passengers would book their flight on the faster plane, if you could finish your trip just 20 minutes faster. Maybe it's possible to implement that into the game (perhaps make the time difference greater - 1 or 2 hours) . This would cause the "slot hoggers" to get rid of their old metal, because nobody would fly with their DC3s and C46s, regardless how cheap or luxurious they are or how good the company and route image is. The competitor's 707 is 3 times as fast and therefore will leave the old planes with nothing more than the last two passengers who arrived late at the airport and make them loose money. It's a natural rule: Evolve or die! And let's be honest: There's no better marketing argument than one of those sexy new jets! ;)

Passengers already do this now in AWS.

It's not the end-all-be-all of their decision, but there is some preference modeled towards the faster option.

However, just like with pricing and the other variables figured in, they all lose out to frequency in the current model.  He who flies the most wins.

BavarianAir

  • Former member
Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2011, 02:53:16 PM »
except for where those sexy new jets would be worse.

I looked at all the jets when I was looking for an international long-haul plane and eventually chose the Bristol Britannia. ITs a turboprop yes but its far better for the routes those jets would have trouble with or just be over-supplying. Same in the regional market. If someone dumps a jumbo or something on a 200nm route currently flown by Fokkers, should the jet automatically win out because its faster from A-B and yet spends more time sitting on the ground at the airport in turnaround?

Something to think about.

I didn't want to suggest that absolutely every route HAS to be served by jets. Of course using jets (a least the ones of this era compared to a modern CRJ or ERJ ) on a 200 nm route doesn't make much sense, except on certain circumstances. But wouldn't you prefer a new, quiet F27 over a rusty, old, unpressurized C46 on your weekend trip from LGA to BOS?

Maybe a second reason for this slot problem is the fact, that, at least in my opinion, there is too much leasing. At that time leased a/c was relatively rare compared to a/c actually owned by the airlines. In our gameworld, I would estimate that around 80%+ of the aircraft is leased. The reason therefore is that the aircraft are very expensive compared to the "real world" prices of that time. For example a DC-6B was priced around $ 1M in the real world, in the game it costs just under $ 5M. So maybe leasing aircraft should be allowed later / or conditions of leasing should be changed in the the game and the prices for buying a/c should be lowered. Let's say we have the following starting scenario:

- starting year 1945
- reducing the prices of a/c to a more realistic level
- every player gets $ 1 million starting cash (completely loaned)
- a pool of surplus military aircraft sold by brokers to start with
- no aircraft in the game, that has not actually been ordered and built by a player airline (no a/c offered by brokers that came out of nowhere)
- no operational leasing (ordered a/c have to be bought - or you find a broker or another airline that is willing to own the a/c for you)
- players are allowed to sell and lease out a/c like before, but can also sell to our lease out through a broker (for a small brokerage fee of course) - to make this model working it might be necessary to have some players who work as brokers because i don't think that a KI would be capable of realistically doing this job ("I'm gonna sell my 100 DC3s to that dumb KI broker for a ridiculously high price instead of having to scrap them" ;D)
- a/c of dissolved airlines go to the broker pool

I think this should reduce the amount of aircraft that is not really needed, and therefore can be messed around with, significantly. The financial possibilities also should force the players to spend their money on things they really need instead for blocking slots at their base airport which they might (not) possibly need later in the game.

Your opinions please!




Offline Sigma

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Re: Slot Hogging !!!
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2011, 03:28:22 PM »
- starting year 1945
- reducing the prices of a/c to a more realistic level
- every player gets $ 1 million starting cash (completely loaned)
- a pool of surplus military aircraft sold by brokers to start with
- no aircraft in the game, that has not actually been ordered and built by a player airline (no a/c offered by brokers that came out of nowhere)
- no operational leasing (ordered a/c have to be bought - or you find a broker or another airline that is willing to own the a/c for you)
- players are allowed to sell and lease out a/c like before, but can also sell to our lease out through a broker (for a small brokerage fee of course) - to make this model working it might be necessary to have some players who work as brokers because i don't think that a KI would be capable of realistically doing this job ("I'm gonna sell my 100 DC3s to that dumb KI broker for a ridiculously high price instead of having to scrap them" ;D)
- a/c of dissolved airlines go to the broker pool

This either already happens now (brokers will buy your AC, aircraft of dissolved airlines go into broker pool) or, as with the remainder of your bullet points, we actually did a test game last year of almost this exact same scenario.  Except I think we started in 1950 thereabouts and there was still leasing (but the a/c price were so cheap it was unnecessary).

I absolutely loved the game.  It was probably my favorite game-world we've had.  But most people hated it and, based on comments since then, I'd say sami wasn't a big fan either.

The real problem most people seemed to have seemed to come down to 2 points -- extremely low demand in that time period (but planes were tiny, so it didn't seem all that different to me) and, more importantly, our system doesn't support either the pooling of connecting passengers or multiple hops.  Air travel didn't work in the hub model that's really all AWS supports.  You couldn't have a plane fly from New York to LA without buying the newest stuff because you couldn't make it via 3 hops on a C46 (or whatever it'd take).  And you couldn't make a route where you left NY, went to Chicago, picked up some passengers, went to Tulsa, picked up some passengers, and then went to LA to drop them all off.

 

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