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Author Topic: Feedback for Alliance Challenge  (Read 5957 times)

Offline Sigma

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2010, 04:57:43 AM »
Quote
"My era.. is finally over. The beta era has ended. It clearly shows it in this game. Where's we dominated airlines and airports... now were the ones getting pushed around. Long the days of real blood shed and competition, now, we have rules and coding in place that even prevent us from doing such.

Not to mention the nature of the game has changed. Things just don't work like they use too. The newer players pick up the simplicity of AWS and just run with it."

Pfft.

While I agree that the old methods of competition (if you really want to call flooding a route with 1000% demand "competing") don't work, it's a folly to claim that the current game is somehow more "simple" than previous iterations.

The game itself isn't harder than it used to be, but competition is significantly harder.  It's stupid-easy to run someone out the old way by grabbing every plane imaginable and flooding routes, any idiot can run people out of business with no restrictions on their operations.  SkyNet proved that a few games ago when a handful of players in our Alliance completely dominated North America running virtually every single other player off the continent -- in the end, I was the ONLY player headquartered west of the Mississippi River that was more than some tiny little 10-plane outfit.  And it was incredibly easy to do once you ran the first few people out of your base (also easy to do).

What we have now may be a bastardised form of the regulated "real competition" that would be allowed to exist in the real world, but it's far superior to what existed previously that had absolutely no place in reality whatsoever.  And that's coming from someone who's been a #1 player in both "types" of worlds.  Effective competition now is FAR more of an exercise in long-term thinking than before.  The final piece yet to be implemented will be some means of ensuring people aren't targetting the newbies for instant death as soon as they move-in or move to a new base.

Hachiko

  • Former member
Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 05:24:24 AM »
Well, Im not an idiot and my strategy is not to flood routes with mixed fleet. E.g. I know your weak points Sigma, but problem is, if I dont have enough cash, bank wont admit loan until Ive paid it (it gave plenty of loans at the start of this game... But not in my second attempt at DFW after MAD)... So it is very difficult to compete. For me the key to the success - and my opinion is that it is the key for new players also - is the time when you start this game. Grab those excellent used F100s with 100 pax and 2100 kg/h fuel consumption or so and fly routes with them conservatively. When another player - your rival - comes to your airport after 2 or more game weeks, chances are weaker. Old and maintenance expensive fuel eaters are only available: DC-10s DC-9s B707s. The start is the key.
Kim.

Yullover

  • Former member
Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 12:52:20 AM »
I just join the alliance challenge 1 week ago... and it's not fun finally, yes its harder, but not playable for new players...

The first thing we can see.. all the world is dominated of BIG BIG airline that start in the beginning, in a big base, and now they open base everywere and we CAN'T simply not open a new airline.

I search for like 1 hour to fund my home base... after 1 week JD air see that i was starting couple of route in CYUL, he decide to make it is 4th base, stop some flight in other base to have plane for fight with me, he put 3 flight in ALL the route i have and kill me in ONE DAY not with time... in ONE DAY !!! HE kill me taking all passenger, lt let me 30-45% of load factor... really nice !!!

I'm now close of the bankcrupty, because, before he arrive i was making close to 1M$ of profit, growing slowly... now profit is 43000$... so i lose money...

I predict this game will finish with 50-80 BIG AIRLINES that dominate all the world, with 5-6 hubs each... not funny... i will maybe try to fund another hub but sure it will not work... and i will quit...

If i can see this before spending 5 credits, i will not make it !!!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 12:54:22 AM by Yullover »

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2010, 01:27:12 AM »
do we have unlimited hubs?

Offline Sigma

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 02:24:28 AM »
I just join the alliance challenge 1 week ago... and it's not fun finally, yes its harder, but not playable for new players...

The first thing we can see.. all the world is dominated of BIG BIG airline that start in the beginning, in a big base, and now they open base everywere and we CAN'T simply not open a new airline.

Well this is the case in any world, not just this one.  That's why I didn't understand when sami re-opened the world and why our Alliance didn't take any new players on.  It just didn't make any sense.  Any new player has like a 5% chance of actually surviving which only decimates your score and they're very unlikely to ever contribute anything to your score either.

Quote
I search for like 1 hour to fund my home base... after 1 week JD air see that i was starting couple of route in CYUL, he decide to make it is 4th base, stop some flight in other base to have plane for fight with me, he put 3 flight in ALL the route i have and kill me in ONE DAY not with time... in ONE DAY !!! HE kill me taking all passenger, lt let me 30-45% of load factor... really nice !!!

This is against the rules of this world and all others, but it continues on anyway, and will until sami can find some way to hard-code it like he was forced to do with the 200% rule.

Quote
I predict this game will finish with 50-80 BIG AIRLINES that dominate all the world, with 5-6 hubs each... not funny... i will maybe try to fund another hub but sure it will not work... and i will quit...

If i can see this before spending 5 credits, i will not make it !!!

Well, they can't have that many hubs because that's not possible.

But there will be a lot less than 50-80 big airlines.  There's less than that even in game-worlds with many more players spread over more area.  There's only about 120 players total now in this world, and there will certainly be well under 100 before it's all over.  There will probably be less than 20-30 really big airlines when it's all over and there's likely be a really big gap between the Top 5 and the rest.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 04:13:22 AM by Sigma »

Offline [ATA] - lilius

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2010, 03:29:29 AM »
Beginning later is sometimes even a good thing. At this point of the game its alot easier to find planes and run a fleet with low costs. 5% chance Sigma? Really? Statements like that made half of my alliance give up before 30% into the game.

As long as we can find ways to run a more streamlined company it doesnt really matter if the competition is bigger.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 03:31:35 AM by lilius »

Offline Sigma

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2010, 04:09:55 AM »
Beginning later is sometimes even a good thing. At this point of the game its alot easier to find planes and run a fleet with low costs. 5% chance Sigma? Really? Statements like that made half of my alliance give up before 30% into the game.

As long as we can find ways to run a more streamlined company it doesnt really matter if the competition is bigger.

"Streamlined" hasn't got a thing to do with it.  There's not enough "streamlining" in the world for someone coming into your airport and sticking 200% demand on every route you fly; even moreso if they do it with Saabs as more than a few airlines in this world are doing to new players as they enter the world.

If you're a new player into an established world and actually survive it's either due to you picking a horrible base that no one else wants, sheer luck of being unnoticed or, like me with Air Ryania in the MT world coming into DFW, you are allowed to survive by the incumbent not being a butt (and breaking the rules) by running you out of business on the first day.  Skill does not come into play.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 04:12:49 AM by Sigma »

Offline Frogiton

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2010, 04:47:17 AM »
If you wanted to make it a hardcore Alliance Challenge we could make it so:
1. You HAVE to base at a top 10 or 15 airport (in the world) in the start, which would mean you have to base with at least one teammate (enforces good competition and some good teamwork).
2. Open the world.
3. 1 BK, if you constantly bk, youre just hurting your Alliance
4. Make better Alliance stats, like where your Alliance is succeeding in and where it's getting hurt. i.e. Show all stats involved in alliance scoring on one nice, pretty table.
5. If you fly over 200% of route demand, your airline and all it's planes spontaneously combust in a fiery explosion.   ;D
6. Only one extra base, also ONLY in top 15 airports.
7. Make fuel prices low for a year or two, then just spike it to like 1000 for the rest of the time being.

P.S. I think it's funny how we all strive to have a huge legacy carrier but once we get there we realize that the journey was where 99% of the fun is.
No replacement for displacement

Offline [ATA] - lilius

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2010, 01:45:35 PM »
Sigma >>

If I can make profits with cabinfactors of 50% its extremely difficult to kick me out from an airport if I have lets say around 40 routes. Of course if you run 1 route you are a sitting duck.

If your airline needs a CF of 80% to survive a 250 usd oilprice its not only competition that is a problem.

Picking small bases never works as it never gives you any economies of scale at all. The critical factor for growth is slots.


and another thing. If youre scared of Saabs or ATR you can fly further than 800NM.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 02:00:04 PM by lilius »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2010, 02:07:06 PM »
If you're a new player into an established world and actually survive it's either due to you picking a horrible base that no one else wants, sheer luck of being unnoticed or, like me with Air Ryania in the MT world coming into DFW, you are allowed to survive by the incumbent not being a butt (and breaking the rules) by running you out of business on the first day.  Skill does not come into play.

But you have to realize that you were the attacker (at DFW) and he was the defender.  He was there first.

I think the incumbent is well justified to defend his hub from any attacker threatening to ruin his game.  This game, in many airports, is (sadly) all about slots.  If a new player threatens to take up many of the slots, defensive action is justified.

In ideal world without the straightjacket of the current base rules and limitations, a new player could start at a smaller airport that is uncontested, build up some profitable routes amass some wealth and move on to bigger contested airports.  Unfortunately, the base rules make this strategy impossible.  You can't open a second base at top 20 airport, and even if you could, you can't take advantage of it because of 70 aircraft basing limit.

So the base rules don't allow new players to start small and move up.  They in fact encourage to start at a big airport and whine...

Offline Sigma

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2010, 04:02:40 PM »
But you have to realize that you were the attacker (at DFW) and he was the defender.  He was there first.

I think the incumbent is well justified to defend his hub from any attacker threatening to ruin his game.  This game, in many airports, is (sadly) all about slots.  If a new player threatens to take up many of the slots, defensive action is justified.

In ideal world without the straightjacket of the current base rules and limitations, a new player could start at a smaller airport that is uncontested, build up some profitable routes amass some wealth and move on to bigger contested airports.  Unfortunately, the base rules make this strategy impossible.  You can't open a second base at top 20 airport, and even if you could, you can't take advantage of it because of 70 aircraft basing limit.

So the base rules don't allow new players to start small and move up.  They in fact encourage to start at a big airport and whine...

Actually, in the MT game I was there first.  He joined in much, much later.  Probably a quarter of the way through the game.  But I was very content with leaving him alone -- at least as long as he left my existing routes alone aside from filling demand on some that weren't; he almost got himself in trouble when he flooded a route of mine very early on.  We came to an anti-competitive agreement that'd surely get us thrown in front of Congress but it worked for us ;) .

As for the remainder of your post, I completely agree.  Well, except for the whole slot complaint of yours which I completely understand your perspective on and why your opinion is what it is, I just disagree with it.

Hachiko

  • Former member
Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2010, 07:28:52 PM »
Well this is the case in any world, not just this one.  That's why I didn't understand when sami re-opened the world and why our Alliance didn't take any new players on.  It just didn't make any sense.  Any new player has like a 5% chance of actually surviving which only decimates your score and they're very unlikely to ever contribute anything to your score either.

Let me echo myself, I totally agree with you.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2010, 07:43:36 PM »
^^^ agreed and emulated.

Now we will see many scores drop because of the fuel prices.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2010, 11:11:15 PM »
Why always my threads get hijacked.... however, I'm surprised. I thought a lot of people would offend me and now I'm some kind of sad most people seem to agree. If we had communicated this before the game world started, we maybe had the chance to create something that would provide more fun and make it to a much better challenge for us all.

At the end this thread wasn't supposed to be a free feedback thread, but I noticed in this moment I forgot the "My" in the topic headline.  :laugh:

Offline Sigma

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Re: Feedback for Alliance Challenge
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2010, 11:28:28 PM »
Why always my threads get hijacked.... however, I'm surprised. I thought a lot of people would offend me and now I'm some kind of sad most people seem to agree. If we had communicated this before the game world started, we maybe had the chance to create something that would provide more fun and make it to a much better challenge for us all.

Read my posts here: CLICK  While many of the comments were directed towards ABCBA-routing specifically the general point was that the game was simply going to be too easy with virtually no competition at all.

Some of the highlights...

...But, at the very least, we need to remove the Top 20 base restriction...

...my interest will be significantly lessened if it's another "carebear" world to be completely frank about it. (seems I wasn't the only one)

One big downside to your envisioning of how it'd work is that, once you run your competitor out of your base, there's almost no reason at all to continue playing.

... the game-world will reach a point where it starts to get fairly empty, fairly quick.

 

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