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Author Topic: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive  (Read 5187 times)

Offline Sami

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Monk Xion

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2011, 06:59:17 PM »
HERE IT IS SIMPLE:

You cant play a business simulation and expect both the capitalistic and socialistic models can play against one another.

The Soviet Airlines were all state-sponsored and owned by the "people".  They may have had transactions on paper, but everything was still all fueled by the Soviet Machine one way or another.

You simply CAN NOT take Soviet made planes out of the Iron Curtain and expect them to perform on a level that is even close to par with the West.

I disagree. There is one airplane that is on par with some Western Aircraft IMO. The TU 204-100.

Offline BobTheCactus

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2011, 07:02:19 PM »
I disagree. There is one airplane that is on par with some Western Aircraft IMO. The TU 204-100.

The new Sukhoi is supposed to be competitive as well...
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Monk Xion

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2011, 07:11:23 PM »

The new Sukhoi is supposed to be competitive as well...

Shoot forgot about that :) the MS -21 I think is supposed to be promising too.

Offline alexgv1

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2011, 07:51:23 PM »
Shoot forgot about that :) the MS -21 I think is supposed to be promising too.

Not in game database yet... until we get info on it
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Offline Beni

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2015, 04:56:00 PM »
I would like to bring boack to life this post because four years later, the problems with soviet planes are still unsolved.

Firs of all, I ask you to forget politics and put your eyes on the game. I'm not interested in talking (here) about the politics of the cold war or the different economic models. I want to talk about the simulation and some aspects of the soviet planes in game.

Fuel comsumption
We can agree that this was not important for the soviet designers. Ok for soviet planes in the 70s, 80s and 90s but moderns russian planes has the same design considerations than western ones and this is not considered in game.

Maintenance cost
Why a soviet plane with the same age and condition as a western one has to pay double for maintenance actions?

Turnaround times
Why an Il-62 (for example) has double turnaround time than a DC-8 that is a bigger plane? Im surprised about how the nationality of a plane has influence in the time needed to put the catering and the fuel on board.


I would like to know why such differences and ask the admins to consider change this values in order to make Eastern planes playables.

Thank you in advance

Offline chiveicrook

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2015, 07:50:12 AM »
Since you resurrected this thread I'll throw in my 2 cents as usual when it comes to commie birds :)

Fuel comsumption
We can agree that this was not important for the soviet designers. Ok for soviet planes in the 70s, 80s and 90s but moderns russian planes has the same design considerations than western ones and this is not considered in game.

Simply put the majority of fuel consumption data for Soviet planes in AWS is simply wrong. It has nothing to do with "gas is free in USSR" mentality. While some planes were simply atrocious when it comes to fuel consumption (Il-86 never received planned engines and used underpowered ones) most were reasonably matched against western counterparts.
It's quite easy to find official documentation for all those planes but there are 2 big problems:
1. It's all in Russian and the scan quality is often poor
2. Flight manuals are often 400+ pages long, use different methods for data presentation and thus require significant amount of time to dig through.
Couple months back I researched couple planes (IIRC: Yak-40, Tu-104, Il-12/14, Il-18) and compiled data for Sami, who gladly corrected it.
I don't have time to further research it but for example Il-62's average fuel consumption in AWS is similar to full-thrust take-off average in the documentation with cruise average being couple thousand kg/h lower.

If we can find some volunteers with at least basic Russian skills it should be easy to correct fuel consumption and range data but it requires dozens of manhours.

Maintenance cost
Why a soviet plane with the same age and condition as a western one has to pay double for maintenance actions?
This is a valid question, especially planes designed to be maintained outside major airports should get some discounts.

Turnaround times
Why an Il-62 (for example) has double turnaround time than a DC-8 that is a bigger plane? Im surprised about how the nationality of a plane has influence in the time needed to put the catering and the fuel on board.
Very bad example :-) One of the drawbacks of the original Il-62 design was the lack of a cargo bay roller transfer system. This and some other problems meant that it was extremely slow to prepare. Most of these problems were corrected with Il-62M but AWS limitation of single turnaround time for one aircraft family comes into play. Some other Soviet planes were also designed with "baggage in hand" system in mind which also I believe is represented by longer turnarounds.
Generally turnaround mechanic needs an overhaul in AWS.

I think we need a call for volunteers who speak Russian :)

Offline JollyRoger

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2015, 02:34:51 PM »
Quote
I think we need a call for volunteers who speak Russian

In GW#3 we have russian alliance :). So, i dont' think that it's a big problem.

Offline chiveicrook

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2015, 02:46:28 PM »
In GW#3 we have russian alliance :). So, i dont' think that it's a big problem.

Let's get to work then ;)
Il-18, Tu-114, Tu-104, Il-14, Yak-40 and Il-62M are mostly corrected.

Most of the needed data can be found in RLE (Руководство по летной эксплуатации) of each plane. I've found those so far:
An-140
An-24
An-26
An-28
Il-114
Il-86
Il-96-300
Tu-134
Tu-154B
Tu-204-100
Tu-204-300
Tu-204C
Tu-214
Tu-334-100
Yak-42
Tu-154M
An-148-100V

I barely understand Russian so it might be easier for you guys to find more :-)

Offline TheLostNZ

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2016, 01:20:44 AM »
I believe that wasn't possible since the planes were not certified over that part of the world.. Only a local certification existed.

i think it was more of a us led embargo agaisnt any nation that was supplied by the soviets, same applied to those who received military jets, with the exception of finland, who had to play both sides for preservation and to keep both sides happy.
thus mig21s alongside saab drakkens and f18s

Offline COUGAR

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2016, 04:40:41 AM »
As per my source who once worked for an Afghan airline (and for a brief while tried starting one in Africa), Soviet aircraft werent really more expensive to operate than Western airlines on an operational basis. Purchase costs were cheaper ofcourse, but fuel burn was only marginally higher for some types 5.5-6 tons/hour for a TU154 vs 5/hr on the 727. Maintenance costs were nearly on par too.Nothing as dramatic as modelled in ASIM.

The issue was spare parts availability - coming from various factories spread throughout the Soviet Union - parts would take months to reach pushing up costs. With creative inventory control, many airlines in poorer parts of the world did manage to keep their fleets going.

In the real world, it wasnt costs that kept Soviet aircraft out of western skies - it was politics.

That said - this is a simulation site modelling real-life situation mainly in the West. So money-model is one way to implement that!

A more realistic way to implement would be to normalise the fuel & maintenance costs of Soviet planes to actuals and implement purchase restrictions. Only countries within the Soviet Bloc can purchase Soviet Bloc aircraft and so on. Non-Aligned countries (like mine) could purchase both!! :)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 04:22:15 PM by COUGAR »

Offline gazzz0x2z

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Re: Making Russian/Soviet aircraft more attractive
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2016, 03:43:45 PM »
(.../...)A more realistic way to implement would be to normalise the fuel & maintenance costs of Soviet planes to actuals and implement purchase restrictions. Only countries within the Soviet Bloc can purchase Soviet Bloc aircraft and so on. Non-Aligned countries (like mine) could purchase both!! :)

As non-aligned countries are not the most powerful of the game, this would be neat. Though it would work as a balancing effect only up to 1989.

 

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