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Author Topic: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve  (Read 830 times)

Offline JumboShrimp

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RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« on: August 12, 2010, 11:35:16 PM »
No matter how badly a route is being serviced, how may delays, cancellations, old aircraft, HD seating, RI always goes to 100, to the point that it can just be called time flown rather than RI.

I would make it reflect the quality of service and on-time performance.  Something like:
- flown with no delay +2%
- flown with green delay no change
- flown with yellow delay -5%
- flown with red delay -10%
- cancelled (even in CD check) -20%

modifier of the above:
- premium seating +1%
- standard seating no change
- HD seating -1%

Single aircraft playing the route, and in C check?  RI will go to 0.

And if the RI does reach 100 under these more stringent conditions, player should be rewarded with more of a LF boost.

Offline Brockster

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 01:25:42 AM »
So you are suggesting that if an airline is flying a route, for example HND-FUK, has flies the route 50+ times a day or so, that every time one of the 50 flights are cancelled the RI will drop 20%? If I'm understanding that correctly it would be pretty difficult, if not impossible, to maintain a high RI because at least one of those flights every day is bound of be cancelled and many of them will surely be delayed.

I have to sort of disagree with the extent of what you are suggesting because realistically if I want to fly from LAX to SFO I don't look at how the airlines flying the route are performing delay wise to determine which airline I will choose... If would be the overall airline (which would fall under CI) and how many frequencies the airline flies, and to a lesser degree which type of plane the airline is using. Obviously pricing is very important as well but that's a separate matter.

If I am flying Delta from LAX to SFO and the airline is late, and service is poor, I won't look back on the trip and feel negatively towards the specific route but instead to the airline entirely, thus I feel that delays should only effect CI, but that's just my opinion.

I think with your suggestion if there is a route being flown and the sole aircraft flying the route went under heavy maintenance and thus RI would drop to 0 is a bit harsh because airlines in AWS with 300+ aircraft currently won't and don't have the time to go through the entire fleet and rotate their planes... If anyone has that sort of time I tip my hat to them.

While I would be open to the idea that RI could be a bit more dynamic, I think what you are suggesting is a bit too harsh if I'm understanding what you are proposing correctly.

Offline Sigma

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 03:40:31 AM »
RI never was supposed to have anything to do any of those things, it always was supposed to be relegated to not much more than "time flown" as you put it.

RI is a measure of the public's knowledge of your airline's servicing a route, not how well you service it.  It's simply whether or not they know you exist on that route so that, come time to make a trip, they know to consider your airline.  What they think of it because of what they've experienced and/or heard from friends about your on-time performance or how comfortable your planes are, is a measure of what they think of your company, not a particular route, and that is what CI represents in AWS.  RI == Consumer Awareness, CI == Consumer Opinion.

I don't disagree that RI comes up WAY too fast, but it shouldn't be affected by any of the things you've listed there.  Though I would agree that they should perhaps effect CI as they really don't today (except cancelled flights even during checks thing, big nix on that one from me).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 03:44:34 AM by Sigma »

Offline schro

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 03:45:19 AM »
RI seems to reflect the general awareness that YOUR airline flies a particular route. Nothing about the performance, frequency, etc, is really factored into it, other than the higher frequency pushes awareness out marginally faster.

I observed the behaviour that RI is modeled after in a thread over at Airliners discussing DL's expansion out of DCA.  One poster suggested that they try DCA-RDU.  I laughed to myself as they did try it.. from May-Sept 2009 (I was on one of the first flights).  They flew 4x daily canadian beer cans and discontinued the route quickly.  Since they didn't operate it long, people didnt generally know it existed.... thus had a very low RI, and has a virtually non-existant one after not being flown for the past year

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 06:26:34 AM »
So you are suggesting that if an airline is flying a route, for example HND-FUK, has flies the route 50+ times a day or so, that every time one of the 50 flights are cancelled the RI will drop 20%? If I'm understanding that correctly it would be pretty difficult, if not impossible, to maintain a high RI because at least one of those flights every day is bound of be cancelled and many of them will surely be delayed.

If 15 out of the 50 had no delay, those would earn +(15*2%)=+30 (when flown with standard seating) and the other 34 had only green delays, you would still be +10% on the day.

I have to sort of disagree with the extent of what you are suggesting because realistically if I want to fly from LAX to SFO I don't look at how the airlines flying the route are performing delay wise to determine which airline I will choose... If would be the overall airline (which would fall under CI) and how many frequencies the airline flies, and to a lesser degree which type of plane the airline is using. Obviously pricing is very important as well but that's a separate matter.

If I am flying Delta from LAX to SFO and the airline is late, and service is poor, I won't look back on the trip and feel negatively towards the specific route but instead to the airline entirely, thus I feel that delays should only effect CI, but that's just my opinion.

Well, true, it would affect CI somewhat in your eyes, but if the airline has 200 routes, it is only a tiny portion.  But you would definitely think twice about flying that route of that airline again, so a much more targetted effect.

I think with your suggestion if there is a route being flown and the sole aircraft flying the route went under heavy maintenance and thus RI would drop to 0 is a bit harsh because airlines in AWS with 300+ aircraft currently won't and don't have the time to go through the entire fleet and rotate their planes... If anyone has that sort of time I tip my hat to them.

You don't have to do, but if you don't, you will have to restart with RI of 0 (likely) after a C or D check.


While I would be open to the idea that RI could be a bit more dynamic, I think what you are suggesting is a bit too harsh if I'm understanding what you are proposing correctly.

Don't forget the gains would also amount to quite a lot when flown without delays, offsetting the losses.  I just don't think that if someone has constant delays and is flying HD seating should have a constant RI of 100 throughout the game.

Offline powi

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2010, 06:30:16 AM »
When an aircraft is in C/D check, the route is not cancelled and thus no imago penalty should be applied. It's just not flown. Because C/D checks are known well in advance no tickets are sold to those flights. In real world I see weekly variations in airlines' schedules so I guess they do it like that in reality too.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 11:24:34 AM by Powi »

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2010, 06:40:03 AM »
RI never was supposed to have anything to do any of those things, it always was supposed to be relegated to not much more than "time flown" as you put it.

RI is a measure of the public's knowledge of your airline's servicing a route, not how well you service it.  It's simply whether or not they know you exist on that route so that, come time to make a trip, they know to consider your airline.  What they think of it because of what they've experienced and/or heard from friends about your on-time performance or how comfortable your planes are, is a measure of what they think of your company, not a particular route, and that is what CI represents in AWS.  RI == Consumer Awareness, CI == Consumer Opinion.

I don't disagree that RI comes up WAY too fast, but it shouldn't be affected by any of the things you've listed there.  Though I would agree that they should perhaps effect CI as they really don't today (except cancelled flights even during checks thing, big nix on that one from me).

I think RI could just be a lot more targetted version of CI.  When flying the route well without major delays or cancellations, it would still be what it is - basically time flown.  And over time, it would reflect growing awareness.  I just think it should also reflect quality of the way it is flown.

Suppose you schedule a flight with absolutely no gaps in the schedule over the minimum.  Delays and cancellations are a routine.  Shoult that flight be contributing to RI of 100?  It is hurting the CI in a miniscule way, but it has virtually no impact that particular route / flight.

If 2 airlines are flying the same route, one well with new aircraft, no delays, good seating comfort, yeah, there is some effect on LF, but not huge.  Delays and cancellation on a route have no effect on LF as far as I can tell.  RI does, and if RI was made more dynamic to reflect delays and cancellations, the delays and cancellations would have an impact on LF.  Making RI more dynamic is the easiest way to program this, IMO.

Offline Sigma

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Re: RI 100 is way too easy to achieve
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2010, 06:50:49 AM »
I just don't think that if someone has constant delays and is flying HD seating should have a constant RI of 100 throughout the game.

No, their CI should suck because people wouldn't be thinking too highly of them.  Unless perhaps their pricing was excellent, then they would be more tolerant of those things, especially the seating.  

Those things shouldn't affect RI one bit because RI nothing to do with the market's opinion of your airline, only its awareness of your airline operating a route.  People don't become less aware of your airline just because your seating sucks or you're constantly delayed.  If anything they're more likely to become more aware of your airline as your horrible operating practices become the subject of news headlines and conversations at work with friends with bad experiences.

I think RI could just be a lot more targetted version of CI.  When flying the route well without major delays or cancellations, it would still be what it is - basically time flown.  And over time, it would reflect growing awareness.  I just think it should also reflect quality of the way it is flown.

CI should cover these things, not RI.  When the vast majority of the market gets bad service at an airline they don't say "I'm never gonna fly that route again", they swear off the entire airline.  A bad experience on a route ruins every other to some degree.  People's opinions of a company aren't "targetted" to specific product or service, whether that be a bad car that makes you swear off an entire automaker or a bad flight that makes you swear off an entire airline, so there's no reason for there to be 500 different reputation levels to manage.

Quote
Suppose you schedule a flight with absolutely no gaps in the schedule over the minimum.  Delays and cancellations are a routine.  Shoult that flight be contributing to RI of 100?  It is hurting the CI in a miniscule way, but it has virtually no impact that particular route / flight.

In my experience it doesn't hurt CI at all unless it's happening as a large percentage of your flights, and that's what needs to be fixed.  Not morphing RI into something that it's not and was never intended to be.  Make CI far more variable than it is today (i.e more than perpetual growth) and more reliant on company service metrics.  Today about 99% of it revolves around the money you throw at it, and that is it.  You can run the crappiest, POS airline in the world, but spend some money on Marketing (and I'm not talking about any more than anyone else either) and all the problems go away and you get a stellar reputation on the market, easily even more than a competitor that flies cheaper, better seating, better timing, newer equipment, and is superior in every other way.

And I literally mean "easily more" than a superior competitor.  Because, since running a crappy airline nets more money in AWS (minimum turns, higher density seating, higher pricing, etc) you can throw more money at CI Marketing, therefore you can afford to buy yourself a higher reputation far more easily than the guy running a far superior airline.  Image in AWS is a function of profit, not of service, which is actually about as backwards as it could possibly be.

Quote
If 2 airlines are flying the same route, one well with new aircraft, no delays, good seating comfort, yeah, there is some effect on LF, but not huge.  Delays and cancellation on a route have no effect on LF as far as I can tell.  RI does, and if RI was made more dynamic to reflect delays and cancellations, the delays and cancellations would have an impact on LF.  Making RI more dynamic is the easiest way to program this, IMO.

The last thing RI needs to be is more dynamic, even if it was to work the way you describe.  People's opinions of an airline or any other company don't ebb and flow on a quarterly basis.  It's wholly unrealistic that an airline could yo-yo from horrible to exemplary on a regular basis.  Bad reputations take forever to fix, and while good reputations are lost much quicker, even they take an extremely long time to damage barring something extremely inordinate like plane crashes.   If an airline was scheduled to not operate a flight for a given 2 weeks for maintenance, 99.99999% of people wouldn't even have the foggiest idea that it happened, let alone have their opinion of the company go in the toilet.  It was a scheduled maintenance, not a plane crash; there's no one to p*** off because you simply didn't sell tickets for a couple weeks, it's not like you ruined someone's vacation.  If a flight had a delayed or cancelled flight, the entire market's opinion of that airline on that route wouldn't take a significant, appreciable, or even negligible hit -- it would take sustained delays of some period of time before any appreciable effect would occur.  Not some 10% hit to some imaginary metric because a single flight was late.  If that were the case, there'd be no one left flying American Airlines. ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 07:01:59 AM by Sigma »

Offline Sami

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