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Online Airline Management Simulation
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Author Topic: Competition/profit margin/Slots - any ideas what to do until game ends in 1983?  (Read 2168 times)

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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I'm not sure if it is clever to open such a topic, but maybe one has some additions that will help me or others.

My airline King Airways out of Los Angeles is doing ok, but the airport is running out of slots. Due to that a smaller airline could establish itself and serves routes I have no slots for.

Another problem is the extreme huge profit margin and the extreme low penalties on fleet commonality.

It is nearly impossible for an airline to get closed by the bank, on the other hand there are not enough slots to compete. I'm no fan of big competition and price wars etc., because I think everybody should have fun in this game, but sometimes it would be nice to compete. In Euro Challenge and ATB this was possible and made fun, but in Jet Age there is on many routes no possibility for competition because all slots are gone.

This is not a whining thread. The main point is... what to do? Open a base? With this +50% staff costs this is going to kill my airline. Wait until many others get bored and open slots? Run the airline on autopilot and renew fleet sometimes?


What are your plans and ideas on this? Have you similar problems or sound all of this strange to you?


Many words used, but at the end its a "WTF should I do?!?!" thread. And yes, reread the first sentence  ;)

Offline DiCH

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Have nearby the same problem with slots. And want to know... How and when slots will be extended?

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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From time to time. There is no fixed update, Tokyo Haneda for example must be extended somewhere in the last two month.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 11:40:01 AM by sami »

BigBarron

  • Former member
Curse..look at the bright side...lol...at least this game will not go into the era where LAX is forced to SHUT DOWN slots.

"It is illegal to limit the number of passengers that can use an airport; however, in December 2005 the city agreed to limit their construction of passengers gates to 163. Once passengers usage hits 75 million, a maximum of 2 gates a year for up to five years will be closed, which theoretically will limit maximum growth to 79 million passengers a year. In exchange civil lawsuits were abandoned to allow the city to complete badly needed improvements to the airport."  {from Wikipedia} sadly enough.

I wonder if Sami will include this in the Modern Age run?? I am not trying to put a damper on your game but looking at major airport expansion times as a rookie and I had to find that lil snippet of info...

IMHO the race for money is pretty much over and slots have always limited any airport expansion/airline basing. Like real life..those of you that got here in the beginning reap the whirlwind. I just started and I find it pretty cool just to try and make a ultra small operation show any kind of profit. I am not whining..as I chose the game. I am just happy to see what direction my lil enterprise heads off into.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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That's the problem... slots in AWS are oriented on real life data. Airports like Atlanta or Dallas/Ft.Worth wouldn't be this big if there weren't main hubs of major airlines based.

Imagine Jet Age were real world... there would be nearly no expansion stop for KLAX.


However, I decided what to do.. maybe this will provide another two years of fun.


Btw, I have slots on every important airport, sometimes more than I need and this without any wide-bodys in the fleet  ;)

Good luck with your small airline. Maybe sometimes I will run also a small airline.  :)

Online schro

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That's the problem... slots in AWS are oriented on real life data. Airports like Atlanta or Dallas/Ft.Worth wouldn't be this big if there weren't main hubs of major airlines based.

Imagine Jet Age were real world... there would be nearly no expansion stop for KLAX.


However, I decided what to do.. maybe this will provide another two years of fun.


Btw, I have slots on every important airport, sometimes more than I need and this without any wide-bodys in the fleet  ;)

Good luck with your small airline. Maybe sometimes I will run also a small airline.  :)

In the last Jet Age (and I'm not in this one), the slots didnt' grow based on the airport's projected size, it was simply +1 slot each year around new year.

With regards to the hubs, I agree with it in regards to the demand distribution - LAX has far more O/D traffic than ATL or DFW could ever dream of having, yet, they're higher demand cities in game because the data used to derive demand is goign on sheer pax count irregardless of O/D statistics.

GDK

  • Former member
Actually what i said is i will hurt all Asianics routes into Australia, so if you care to take a look ive done that already 75% domination ;D Worldlink :-[

I didn't see any domination there and on the route which you compete with Asianic, you did not succeed very well. On route to Perth, he is over 60% and you below 40%. This route is still under demand and anyone of you can add another plane there. On the Sydney routes, you have higher market share among the 3 airlines. But, your input doesn't match with your output. Your frequency is 5-6 times their frequency. On the route to Brisbane, your frequency is 5 times Asianic's flight, yet, you lead the market share not more than 10% over him.

In AWS, frequency is usually the best weapon to compete on any route. And, higher frequency with smaller plane is always the winner over big pane flying less frequency. You got both frequency and smaller plane, but you still can't over take him significantly. Actually, you didn't affect him at all...

Offline JumboShrimp

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My airline King Airways out of Los Angeles is doing ok, but the airport is running out of slots. Due to that a smaller airline could establish itself and serves routes I have no slots for.

Another problem is the extreme huge profit margin and the extreme low penalties on fleet commonality.

That's the reason I quit Jet Age 2.  I was in ORD.  Due to extremely high demand, and extremely high profit margins - and slots running out, I realize I would never run the smaller competitors out of the game - to get their slots.

The extreme pain to make even the smallest schedule changes (with limited slots), it was just no fun...

In ATB, the slots are a little more plentiful, so you can actually compete ...

BigBarron

  • Former member
Well, I may be wrong here but I really think what Curse was wondering was if this runtime game is worth stayin in and paying the credits to continue. Those that have the "upperhand" so to speak will most likely remain there due to the LACK of viable competition...I dont think you will ever really manage to stamp out all the lil operations there...but most of the larger companies have the financial stability to hurt the little guy till they are in unrecoverable bankrupt mode. To give everyone flame material here..I think it really comes down to personal egos so to speak...is this game and someones ego important enough to continue onward even after achieving either personal goals or some aspect of dominance in this runtime session. My take it do what ever makes you feel good....maybe theres someone out there that is a freakishly hard enemy to put down or theres an ongoing fued and someone has to be top dog..lol...like I said...I am here to learn the game...and have fun....I have already went bust once...and it was fun just learning...I will never achieve any form of dominance per se in any region...but I WILL be the biggest minnow in my lil pond...lol.. ;D

DenisG

  • Former member
There is one big friend of newcomers and a hated pedestrian by incumbents: He is called oil prices...  ;D

Denis

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Hey, I don't run fuel guzzlers ... ok... maybe one or two DC-8... ;D

Online schro

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Well, I may be wrong here but I really think what Curse was wondering was if this runtime game is worth stayin in and paying the credits to continue. Those that have the "upperhand" so to speak will most likely remain there due to the LACK of viable competition...<snip>

I ran away with the last Jet Age (based in ATL) in just about every metric and had about 50 DC-10-30's, 50 DC-8-63's and 100+ 727-200/200Advs parked without much anywhere to go...

The few that could have possibly outrun me in CV dropped about 5 game years before the end....

altmants

  • Former member
The problem with the Jet Age is that has about 280 players. Where as Air Travel Boom/Modern Times is around 360 players.

Meaning AirTravel boom game only has 1.3x the players, but it has nearly 20x the demand and 20x the slots available.

The problem with the jetAge is that their are too many players for the amount slots we have.

In Modern Times, Newark has 42 Slots where as in the jet age we have to deal with 21 slots. Similar with JFK. Or Dallas having 20ish slots compared to 103 from DFW.


HOWEVER, the counter argument is that "Just open a new base if you run out of slots at your current airport". The problem with this is DEMAND. Opening a base at a small airport in the jet age is not worth it considering the extra cost you have to take it for the marginal passenger demand.

ON the OTHER SIDE, in AirTravel Boom, you could open up bases in small airports and still have crazy demand. Examples from AirTravel Boom....Eugene, Oregon(Airport Size: Super small) to DFW has over 1000 pax/day. Even Eugene to ORLANDO has 280 pax/day demand and so forth.

OF course the Air Travel BOom age should have more demand, it fits the logic.

The Jet age games needs to be capped at 200 players instead of 300 to make the game work better IMO. If you think back in history, how many airlines were their in the jetage compared to present day. You had the main ones such as TWA and PanAM for the USA. Then you had regional ones such as Braniff and Air California.

If Both the jetage and Airtravel boom have about the same number of players...but one game has a lot more slots and a lot more demand. So in conclusion, i'm saying the jetage game needs to have reduced amount of players.



Online schro

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In the prior jet age, it was far more playable with having ABCBA routes - I basically built mini-hubs at ORD and LAX along with my main base in ATL.

While demand is one issue and slots are another, the real problem isnt' the number of airlines, its that the concept of hubs and superhubs didn't exist until the post-deregulation era (circa 1978) and all the fare wars of the 1980's is really what drove demand.

The airline model in the era of our "Jet Age" was more like riding a train or a bus - the plane flew a certain path, and people got on and off at their stops - for example, to fly from RDU-ATL, you'd get to make 3 stops enroute, thus you'd fly RDU-GSO-CLT-GSP-ATL.  Given this, the statistical demand information available from the Jet Age doesn't gel well with the hub and spoke type model that this simulation game is built upon.

What Bob Crandell and his marketers over at AA figured out in the early 80's, is that by superhubbing a city versus a more decentralized point to point system, is that he could exponetially increase demand and revenue and only incrementally increase costs. This discovery along with the invention of yeild management systems is really what ushered in the Modern Times/ATB era. Prior to that a 50% load factor was the norm and prices were set by the government, much like your power and phone bills are regulated today (in most states).


minerva

  • Former member
I think these complaints about the level of competition in Jet Age 2 are missing the point and are not based on knowledge of the sim's actual history.

When the current ATB started the upper limit was 550 players, and it was very nearly full.  The competition was for the first few years just as fierce as it is in the current Jet Age 2. 

Time and competition has whittled down the number of players in ATB, just as it is/will in JT2.

 


Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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I don't think there is a problem with competition in Jet Age, but maybe I'm not the right one to ask.

N101PA

  • Former member
I have a small airline based out of Sacramento, I've pretty much expanded as far as I can go. All the demand to the larger airports within a 1000-mile radius has been filled and I can't justify running any more DHC-6s on low demand routes much farther out than I already have.

I am waiting for the B727-200adv to come out so I can order a bunch of them to reach the east coast and, with any luck, I will be able to expand a little bit. I did order a few too many B727-200s on lease, so I ended up buying one and leased it out. I'm still making money nonetheless, even with my DHC-6's (which are all owned). I only have 7 planes so I am not struggling for slots, only demand.

N101PA

  • Former member
Well I'll have my first B727-200adv in the air late December '71, just confirmed an order for 3 of them, final one delivers October '72

 

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