AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: production slots  (Read 5350 times)

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2010, 01:58:20 PM »
I get the game advantage that you can have nice spaces between C/D checks, but if you are based in a large airport no way you can cover all the demand in just a 20 year scenario.

I suggest something: what if you have to pay for your extra delivery slots? Say you order 12 737-700s. You could receive them in 12 months for no extra charge (this sounds very easujet ;D ). But, you want them in 3 months. So you buy the extra delivery slot from the manufacturer or even other airlines (give a maximum of 4 a month  for small a/c and 2 a month for big a/c to stop airlines buying entire production lines!). The cost of the slot would be determined by the number of aircraft ordered of that production line.

This would allow everybody to be happy as you could receive aircraft in the way you want (fast or slow), it could be an investment as a production slot would rise or decrease in value to add a new dimension to the game and it could help small airlines to grow faster either by getting planes faster or getting good cash because of their valuable production slots!

What do you think?

I think you completely miss the point.

The entire reason the change was made was to help slow growth by the players that really know how the "game the game" in attempt to level the playing field to some extent.  By allowing certain players with expert knowledge of the game systems and how to exploit them for their monetary gain, the ability to buy even more planes of a certain type than someone else, you've made the problem worse.

If you want a lot of planes you can still get a lot of planes.  Sami was very smart to allow that functionality.  He's not limiting how many planes you can get at all.  You just have to order from different fleet types.  This gives you a cost disincentive though through commonality penalties which helps bring your margins down which helps slow your growth somewhat which is clearly needed if you're sitting on so much cash you're having to invest into 4+ fleet types to spend it all (despite efforts to increase the commonality penalty it clearly needs to be more to meet sami's stated goals though).  

It's an extremely well designed idea that simply needs more tweaking to better fulfill the vision.  Is it going to please everyone?   Of course not.  Face it, you're not going to get every 737 or A320 or whatever that you want.  Just deal with it.

Besides, your comment that you cannot get enough aircraft for multiple bases is absurd.  Even if you stuck purely to just 3 aircraft types, so didn't venture into commonality penalties or the Used market one bit, you could still take delivery of at least 36 aircraft a year.  That's 360 aircraft a decade with just 3 types.  Even this far into the game, there's only a few airlines with more aircraft than that.  Go into 4 or 5 types which have fairly minimal commonality penalties, especially when dealing in these volumes, and you can get more than 600 aircraft a decade (and much more if we're talking about regionals).  So in your "50 year game" you could procure somewhere in the range of 3-thousand planes, and even figuring in that some would have to be replaced twice over, that's still more than enough deliveries to maintain an airline of over 1000 aircraft.

Somehow I managed to be a Top 10 airline with just TWO fleet types, and I wasn't even running full capacity on those.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:31:51 PM by Sigma »

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2010, 02:01:52 PM »
still, it's not by pulling down the strong that you'll build up the weak. 1 plane per fleet group is just too little. At least 2

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2010, 02:28:43 PM »
still, it's not by pulling down the strong that you'll build up the weak. 1 plane per fleet group is just too little. At least 2

Of course it helps the "weak", I don't understand how you can't see that.  It's not going to make them better players, no, but it does give them more opportunity to become a better player.

Going to two doubles the pace of expansion in the game.  If you're good enough at the game to be able to buy, let's say, 25 x 737s in your first year, but someone else is only good enough to ultimately afford to buy 12, it doesn't matter one bit because you both are only going to get about 12 of them a year.  This keeps competition at your base more level.  Whereas if you could get twice as many, now at the end of Year 1 you now have 24 planes and the other guy only has 12.  It's over for him.  The nature of this game says that, at that point, he now virtually has no chance.  Once you're able to get more aircraft than someone else, it's the beginning of the end for them because your more planes will make more money, allow you to get even more planes, and even more money, and it's a vicious cycle that ends in the bankruptcy of your competitor.

Now perhaps it was inevitable regardless.  If you're the better player, you're the better player.  And eventually your ability to order more planes will catch up to your competition who just can't keep up if they weren't able to keep putting orders into the queue.  But by slowing the growth you've put off the "lesser" players demise until later in the game and gave them at least a fighting chance to survive out of sheer mass if nothing else and you've increased the enjoyment of the game for more players for longer.  Slower growth means that players don't "bump into" one another at a base until much later in the game when the disparity between them is much less.  With faster deliveries, they'd run into one another 2-4 times sooner when it's far more likely that the "lesser" player will not be in a condition to survive.

Take DFW for example in the MT game.  Normally I'd have run off all the competition at DFW in short order.  I'd get so many planes and so would they that we'd be treading on one another by the first or early 2nd year of the game.  And by the 3rd year I'd have run most out of business, by the 5th year they'd all be out of business, I'd be dominating DFW, and I'd never have to worry about anyone again and the game got super-boring.  In this latest game though, thanks to the slower growth of everyone at DFW, our market shares stayed relatively even (I was actually a fair bit lower than the 2 main others for a while).  It wasn't until a few years into the game that we started running into one another, and we were all far more 'mature' companies.  Running the first guy out of business took me years longer than it would have taken me before and it would have been much longer were it not for bad base decisions that he made.  The 2nd guy, by the time I got around to him, was in an even better position thanks to even more time.  He had a strong value and a lot of cash.  I've been working on him the better part of 5 years and I'd estimate I've got at least 5 more years to go before he'll be gone -- longer if he ever actually comes online.  The changes to the system have provided a longer game for my competition, a more level playing field with my competition (not to say it is "level" I'm whooping them in margins, just more level than in previous games), and a more enjoyable game for myself because my competition is sticking around for longer and is much more able to put up a stronger fight than in games past.  And both of these guys were newer players who normally would have been pushovers in previous games.  The system has really helped their ability to stay in game for longer.

And then there's the fact that production rates are set to realistic figures (and, it so happens, production queues are realistic too).  So upping it to 2 deliveries per month has to do 1 of 2 things:

1> It either means you now only only HALF as many players to participate in the monthly deliveries of aircraft which screws over a huge number of players whose number one complaint is already that they can't get into the "good" queues which FURTHER hurts the "lesser" player by not allowing them any practical access to the best planes in the game,

2> Or It means you have to double the production capacity of manufacturers versus reality.  Which is not only not realistic but has the negative side effects of game pace as described above as well as greatly increases the likelihood of aircraft being canceled because people get their deliveries much faster.  We're already getting at points in the game where certain aircraft that had huge queues early on are dwindling to nothing as people's bases get full.  Soon enough the Fokker 100 line, of which there are some 1500 out there, will have no one in it and the plane will risk being cancelled, the A300 with over 1200 in service will soon be in the same boat.  With deliveries that were twice as fast, these planes queues would have been empty long ago, the models at risk of being cancelled, which impacts options available to both new and existing players later in the game.

And at the end of the day, no one is "pulling you down" because you can still buy as many planes as you want.  You just have to buy them from a different production line is all.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 02:49:24 PM by Sigma »

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2010, 02:57:00 PM »
Going to two doubles the pace of expansion in the game.  If you're good enough at the game to be able to buy, let's say, 25 x 737s in your first year, but someone else is only good enough to ultimately afford to buy 12, it doesn't matter one bit because you both are only going to get about 12 of them a year.  This keeps competition at your base more level.  Whereas if you could get twice as many, now at the end of Year 1 you now have 24 planes and the other guy only has 12.  It's over for him.  The nature of this game says that, at that point, he now virtually has no chance.  Once you're able to get more aircraft than someone else, it's the beginning of the end for them because your more planes will make more money, allow you to get even more planes, and even more money, and it's a vicious cycle that ends in the bankruptcy of your competitor.

A game is not a game if everybody is level for ever! The bigger that wins over the weaker is the nature of all games.

The reason why I want 2 planes is that we now have 3 hubs to deal with, so by just receiving one plane per fleet group the game is just too slow.

Offline swiftus27

  • Members
  • Posts: 4395
Re: production slots
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2010, 03:07:24 PM »
A game is not a game if everybody is level for ever! The bigger that wins over the weaker is the nature of all games.

The reason why I want 2 planes is that we now have 3 hubs to deal with, so by just receiving one plane per fleet group the game is just too slow.

You prefer a game that will have fewer players who dominate the globe.  That is the only outcome in this scenario and was why it was changed in the first place.  1.1 is when we started with this production method and it is not devoid of problems. 

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2010, 03:13:46 PM »
A game is not a game if everybody is level for ever! The bigger that wins over the weaker is the nature of all games.

And the bigger still win over the "weaker" in this game too.  It just takes longer is all which makes for a more enjoyable game for more people for a longer time.  The better player will always win, it's just a matter of whether you have them "win" after about 5-10% of the way through the game, which is what happened in previous games and why they went SO stagnant SO soon, or you allow for more level (not "level", more level) growth between players leading to less disparity between players, leading to more equal and longer competition between players, leading to more enjoyment for longer periods of time for more players.

Quote
The reason why I want 2 planes is that we now have 3 hubs to deal with, so by just receiving one plane per fleet group the game is just too slow.

Even if you stuck purely to just 3 aircraft types, so didn't venture into commonality penalties or the Used market one bit, you could still take delivery of at least 36 aircraft a year.  That's 360 aircraft a decade with just 3 types.  Even this far into the game, there's only a few airlines with more aircraft than that.  Go into 4 or 5 types which have fairly minimal commonality penalties, especially when dealing in these volumes, and you can get more than 600 aircraft a decade (and much more if we're talking about regionals).  So in your "50 year game" you could procure somewhere in the range of 3-thousand  planes, and even figuring in that some would have to be replaced twice over in that timeframe, that's still more than enough deliveries to maintain an airline of over 1000 aircraft.

Somehow I managed to be a Top 10 airline in MT2 with just TWO fleet types, and I wasn't even running full capacity on those, instead only taking about 75% of my total allotment of A300s and about 85% of my total possible deliveries of F100s.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 03:18:25 PM by Sigma »

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2010, 03:18:46 PM »
I don't think that 1 aircraft more per month would shift the world off it's axis and create a world dominated by large airlines. In the passed editions of games (the one just before v1.2) you could receive up to 6 aircraft per month and yes, there were huge airlines, but yes, there were also many small airlines and the world was certainly not dominated by large evil airlines as you depict them

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2010, 03:32:42 PM »
I don't think that 1 aircraft more per month would shift the world off it's axis and create a world dominated by large airlines.

As mentioned above, it would double the pace of the game -- so where we're at now in ATB/MT2 where the games are getting very full, would have happened RL MONTHS ago at about 15% of the way into the game, rather than closer to 40%.  This is why in all previous games the latter 2/3rds were so mind-numbingly boring.  Now, in stark contrast to where previous games would have been at this stage, there are many more active players, many more successful players, and many more airports with very healthy competition going on.

In previous games, by the 20% mark, most every major airport would be down to a single player who controlled 85%+ of the market.  Now, even at 40%, many airports in MT2 still have 2 competitors, and even where there is now a single one (most of which coming about as a result of the fuel spike a few months ago that drove a number bankrupt) they don't control the entire airport at a 85-95%+ marketshare, instead often having a much more realistic 60%+ marketshare because there is still a much healthier competition from the multitude of outside airports than we'd have been in previous games.

Quote
In the passed editions of games (the one just before v1.2) you could receive up to 6 aircraft per month and yes, there were huge airlines, but yes, there were also many small airlines and the world was certainly not dominated by large evil airlines as you depict them

Yes it was.  It was exactly as you describe -- huge airlines with many "small" airlines.  There was little in the middle.  The slower delivery of aircraft has created worlds where more players enjoy sizeable airlines.  This is not opinion or conjecture.  The end results of games prior to 1.1 had a HUGE disparity between a handful of massive airlines and then a whole bunch of tiny ones with very little in the middle.  The end results of 1.1 games has a clearly evident bell-curve to the results, with far more players enjoying relative success; of course there are still tiny ones and still massive ones, but the overall curve of the results is vastly different now.

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2010, 05:24:54 PM »
you're saying that demand is totally met and that airlines that dominate their airport alone are rare.

Well, I can tell you that demand in ATB (my game) is certainly not met (by loads - I keep on finding 1500pax and above unserved routes from everywhere) and we're at the end of 2007. And, huge airlines that dominate their hubs still exist.

Offline swiftus27

  • Members
  • Posts: 4395
Re: production slots
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2010, 05:43:40 PM »
you're saying that demand is totally met and that airlines that dominate their airport alone are rare.

Well, I can tell you that demand in ATB (my game) is certainly not met (by loads - I keep on finding 1500pax and above unserved routes from everywhere) and we're at the end of 2007. And, huge airlines that dominate their hubs still exist.

Sure, I dominate Mexico in this game.  I think 80% of all Mexican travel is under my flag.  However, I had many competitors who had an ample opportunity to come in and take me down.  There were 4 airlines here at one point but they crashed and burned during the first fuel crunch. 

The fact is, with slower airplane ordering and longer games, more people CAN get involved.   And again, you may get 1 per month for that one fleet type.  Also remember your competition has the same issue.

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2010, 09:39:49 PM »
you're saying that demand is totally met and that airlines that dominate their airport alone are rare.

Erm, no.  No I'm not.

I said that they're getting full, and I said that many airports have 2 competitors still, not that an airport with a single one was "rare", and that it's not as common at this point in the game for an airline to control virtually ALL traffic (90%+) into an airport which was the norm in game's past.  I'm in ATB too, I operate in all games so that I can see the world and answer people's questions.  And I've operated in every single other game that's been had in the past 18 months.  I, for an absolute fact the worlds are more "balanced" than they have been in the past -- the dynamics we see now between airlines, with route demand, etc -- are the same dynamics we saw after barely a couple weeks in previous games, and from shortly thereafter they were stagnant, boring messes hardly worth the time to play them (and few people did after all the competition was ran out).

With the advent of bases and slower growth, even a single airline alone in a major city often doesn't get too high above the 65-70% mark, which means at least a little more competition on their routes than previous games which means less margins, which means we get a little bit of a damper on the unrealistic margins and lack of competition unlike what happened in all previous games (and still to a number of players today) where people, often after just a few game-years, had virtually ZERO competition into their base and margins in excess of 40% that rivalled what is seen in the illegal narcotics business, not the actual airline industry.

Quote
Well, I can tell you that demand in ATB (my game) is certainly not met (by loads - I keep on finding 1500pax and above unserved routes from everywhere) and we're at the end of 2007.

Great!  Thanks for making my point for me.

There are still opportunities for people to enter a game and actually be something.  Even this late into a game.  Whereas in previous games, if you didn't join in from Day One, your odds of being highly successful where extremely slim.  Now with the slower pace of growth other airlines have a chance to be successful as well.

Quote
And, huge airlines that dominate their hubs still exist.

And, again, thank you for making my point.

Competition still exists.  You're not "equal" with everyone else, no matter how much you think this system "brings you down".  You still have the opportunity to be the biggest, baddest airline around if you want and drive everyone else out of business.  You can still dominate your airport if you want.  It's just a little bit harder now.

At the end of the day it's still a game, and a game that has to appeal to a WIDE group of people.  That means making rules that exist to make the game the most FUN for the most people.  And, inevitably, that means some people aren't going to like it.  You don't and that's fine, that's your opinion and your prerogative.  I, for one, welcome the added challenge and realize the positive effect it has on the game as a whole rather than worrying about just how many planes I can get.

You want to see the kibosh really get put on aircraft purchases, wait until sami gets around to tweaking the expenses in this game to something even remotely close to realistic levels.  Then when your massive airline is making a 5% margin in a good year and you can barely afford to replace your aging fleet, let alone be concerned about just how many planes you can take delivery of in a year, then you'll really be complaining.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 09:44:51 PM by Sigma »

Online JumboShrimp

  • Members
  • Posts: 5992
Re: production slots
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2010, 07:50:26 PM »
Since older, larger airlines are almost always going to have outstanding orders for a particular aircraft and newer airlines are not, common sense dictates that such a rule will more than likley benefit newer airlines moreso than older ones.

I am not sure if the rule benefits newer airlines in general.  I think it benefits newer airlines that get lucky (a subset of new airlines).

Imagine a scenario of a new airline finally ready to place an order on the new market (rather then living off the used market).  I place an order for a popular aircraft with 2 year wait.  I place an order, first plane will be delivered in 2 years.

Subsequently, a bunch of gaps open up in the first 2 years.  New airline tries to place an order to grab some of the gaps, but the next order gets placed after the first order.  So an older established airline has orders in the queue, and gets deliveries at a rate of 1 or to aircraft per month.  No effect or them, since they cannot increase their rate of deliveries.  But a new airline can't get at the empty production slots, even though the new airline is not getting any deliveries in the timeframe.

I know this is not a pressing issue for Sami.  But when other pressing issues are dealt with, and there is time to have another look at the ordering system, I would let airlines with orders already in the queue have a chance to get at the empty slots, assuming the empty slots are within the frequency of deliveries limitation.

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: production slots
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2010, 08:16:52 PM »
I am not sure if the rule benefits newer airlines in general.  I think it benefits newer airlines that get lucky (a subset of new airlines).

I agree.  Note that I didn't say that it benefited newer airlines, I said that it was more likely to benefit newer airlines more than older ones.  Which it is.

Does that mean that everyone gets lucky?  Of course not.

I really, really doubt you'll see the rule change.  At least not in the direction you want it to.  There will almost certainly be MORE restrictions placed on larger airlines, not any easing of them.  If there were to be any change at all, my money would it be on only allowing vacated slots to go to airlines with less than XX planes, or less than XX months/years old, regardless of where else they may be in the queue; as such a change would be more likely to help a younger airline compete more effectively.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 08:18:55 PM by Sigma »

Pavlov

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2010, 07:39:01 PM »
I have a slightly similar question:

How come when I order 3 planes at once, I don't get 3 consecutive slots? But instead there are 3 empty slots in between.

Thanks in advance.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14538
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: production slots
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2010, 07:40:17 PM »
There's space for other orders, if other airlines want to order it too.

Pavlov

  • Former member
Re: production slots
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2010, 07:41:52 PM »
There's space for other orders, if other airlines want to order it too.

Okay, thanks for the quick reply.

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.