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Author Topic: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)  (Read 4879 times)

munipandita

  • Former member
Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« on: June 18, 2010, 07:45:03 PM »
Hi people.

I know everyone says it, about the fleet commonality.. But i really got shocked with this:

I had a fleet of 16 Saab2000, 5 EMB-120 and 2 ERJ-170 (3 more on the way)

Then i decided to get rid of my EMB-120...

I looked the Fleet commonality before geting rid of them, and i got this:

Embraer 170/175/190/195
Number of aircraft in fleet    2
Total    570 918 USD

Embraer EMB-120
Number of aircraft in fleet    5
Total    449 763 USD

Saab 2000
Number of aircraft in fleet    16
Total    1 021 530 USD

then, AFTER i get rid of my loved EMB-120 (i really like flying them on real life)

Embraer 170/175/190/195
Number of aircraft in fleet    2
Total    309 822 USD

Saab 2000
Number of aircraft in fleet    16
Total    549 627 USD

Almost 50% of both costs!!!

So those who are trying to make a regional airline work, don't use more than 2 fleet types!!! only 1 would be the perfect situation, but unfortunatelly it's difficult to find one family that feets in various seats categories, not like the Saab 2000... There is the ERJ-145, but i think it's more expensive than the S2000, and also is from another family of A/C.. so doesn't matter

Boomer Aires

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 08:38:52 PM »
Hi Catita Bill,

Just to clarify:
WITH EMB-120 you got total fleet commonality costs of 2 042 211 USD
and WITHOUT it also reduced your costs for your ERJ-170s and Saab 2000 by approx 50%?

How can this be?
Has anyone an idea, as the costs should be for each a/c group and 50% seems to be extremely high?

Fixed maintenance costs  -> on a/c type
Crew training                 -> on type
only the administrative costs could be variable but that high...

Could someone confirm this.

Boomer

Offline Sigma

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 08:46:47 PM »
Yes, that's the way it works.

You don't see people constantly telling people about fleet commonality for nothing.

The increase per fleet group is 50-100% of ALL your costs.  Supposedly the jump at 4 is significantly greater than this, but I haven't tried it as I never operate more than 3 and try to keep just 2.

There's a good reason why, in real-life (and here too), so many regional jets have hugely wide options for their models.  So you can get a single model of plane that ranges from about 45pax to over 100pax, so a single model can cover all their needs.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 08:48:51 PM by Sigma »

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 08:50:11 PM »
Maintenance costs aren't such a big problem everybody is talking about.

If all of your types are profitable and you ran a big airline out of a high demand city, you can have up to 8 different types, even when fuel prices are ~$800. Especially in the first years of a game world until you can create your "dream fleet".


Of course it's better if you have less different fleet models, but the main advantage of the fleet commonality is the fact YOU can change the costs by using fewer/more different fleet models, while fuel, navigation fees and staff etc. are fixed costs you can't adjust (like Marketing costs).


Edit:
There is no difference between using one or two fleet models, right? However, for regional airlines it's best to use only one or two fleet groups for engine commonality too.






GDK

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 01:16:48 AM »

The increase per fleet group is 50-100% of ALL your costs.  Supposedly the jump at 4 is significantly greater than this, but I haven't tried it as I never operate more than 3 and try to keep just 2.


Is it the same in real life? Just don't understand why adding aircraft type should affect the cost of current fleet.

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »
I have found that for game purposes you save a "bit" of money by having a common fleet. I have also mixed 5-7 different types in one game without any detriment at all, although my planes ran quite full. In the end, probably best to try and stay common, saves some money over time, but you won't go under if you don't. As long as those planes are running full!

tidelover05

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 08:10:18 PM »
i totally agree im a regional carrier out of fort lauderdale and had the same problem i operated the emb 120 then quickly bought a crj. i was toast after that fleet commonality destroyed me especially b/c i was still in my infancy. i declared bankruptcy started over and bought 5 emb 120's after i was established making profits i then got 5 atr 72 500's and am turning a good profit now.. i think the biggest hazard in operating more than one aircraft for regional carriers is dont expand too soon! you can be successful with more than one type aircraft but establish routes and a reputation first

Offline CVACEO

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 09:55:27 PM »
The key is this ... when you are first starting out try to find one type a/c (that is available both on the used market in reasonable quanties and also available new) that will do everything you need for, say, the first 20 routes you plan to open.  Don't be afraid to oversupply the route if necessary (keeping it under the 200% rule, of course) because you can actually create demand to some extent on any given route just by having seats available.  It is better to fly 120 seats on an 80 demand route and keep your fleet commonality then to break commonality to fly a smaller a/c.  When choosing the a/c look first at range (can you cover all your routes with this a/c?), then look at seats vs. demand (don't necessarily try to cover all demand with a single flight ... you will generally do better flying to each destination twice anyway - especially if you have competition on the route), then look at fuel burn (is this the most efficient a/c that can do the job?). 

The fewer a/c types you can fly the better and flying a single type that suits the purposes for all your routes will reward you with perhaps a 10% or more boost in profit margin.

flydreamer

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2010, 01:36:55 PM »
i totally agree im a regional carrier out of fort lauderdale and had the same problem i operated the emb 120 then quickly bought a crj. i was toast after that fleet commonality destroyed me especially b/c i was still in my infancy. i declared bankruptcy started over and bought 5 emb 120's after i was established making profits i then got 5 atr 72 500's and am turning a good profit now.. i think the biggest hazard in operating more than one aircraft for regional carriers is dont expand too soon! you can be successful with more than one type aircraft but establish routes and a reputation first

and using RJs  is also a very bad idea for regional airline. i have to declare bankruptcy twice by using RJ... :-\ :-\

Offline CVACEO

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2010, 01:44:42 PM »
and using RJs  is also a very bad idea for regional airline. i have to declare bankruptcy twice by using RJ... :-\ :-\

Maybe ... maybe not.  I hate to see an aircraft take all the blame for a bankruptcy.  With the possible exception of some of the Russian models (the Yak 40 & 42 come to mind) I think you can be profitable with just about any a/c as long as you use it for the routes it was designed for and as long as you aren't maintaining horrible fleet commonality.  For instance, I have seen the BAe 146's and Avro RJ's get some bad press from time to time, yet I have had very good luck with them on routes of 500 miles or less when you can turn the seats over 6-10 times per day (3 to 5 flights per day).  Yes you could argue that the ATR 72 will do similar work for substantially less fuel but once you factor in speed and the ability to turn the aircraft around for one or two more flights per day the 146's & RJ's get into the "sweet spot" of profitability and work just fine.

flydreamer

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2010, 02:24:29 PM »
well, maybe so. but you can get more profit by not using RJs and using props. saab 2000 is a fast prop out there, and the speed isn't so much different with RJ's speed.

Offline CVACEO

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2010, 02:44:38 PM »
well, maybe so. but you can get more profit by not using RJs and using props. saab 2000 is a fast prop out there, and the speed isn't so much different with RJ's speed.

Whether a Saab 2000 or a BAe 146 is better-suited really depends on the demand for a given route.  Comparing the Saab 2000 and the Bae146-300, for instance, the Saab 2000 only carries 58 pax in high-density configuration while the BAe 146-300 carries 96 in standard configuration or 112 in high-density.  The Saab wins in the fuel-burn per pax category but the additional 38-54 pax that the BAe 146 carries per flight can make it more profitable overall.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 02:48:11 PM by GoGreenCEO »

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2010, 06:40:26 PM »
I don't understand why people using Saab2000.

Either I will have a prop or I will have a jet, but I don't wanna have an extremley fast and much fuel consuming prop or a jet with 60 seats...

For myself I prefer Dash8-Q400 - it has some nice +MTOW variants and it can be seated with first class.

Online [ATA] Sunbao

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    • FmFreaks
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2010, 07:30:06 PM »
I don't understand why people using Saab2000.

Either I will have a prop or I will have a jet, but I don't wanna have an extremley fast and much fuel consuming prop or a jet with 60 seats...

For myself I prefer Dash8-Q400 - it has some nice +MTOW variants and it can be seated with first class.

It is cheap easy to get and a good place to start

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 08:55:52 PM »
And where is the advantage to Fokker 70/100, ATR-72 or Dash8-Q400 and DHC-8?

I know Saab2000 is the fastest prop, but it consumes a lot of fuel and has no fleet commonality with another model.


Offline CVACEO

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 09:06:51 PM »
And where is the advantage to Fokker 70/100, ATR-72 or Dash8-Q400 and DHC-8?

I know Saab2000 is the fastest prop, but it consumes a lot of fuel and has no fleet commonality with another model.



If you compare the F70/100 to the BAe or Avro RJ's, the 100 seems on par with them, except they require an additional cabin crew.  The F70 is horrible, in comparison - it carries less pax, has comparable fuel burn and also requires that third cabin crew.

In comparing the regional turbo props with the RJ's you need to compare a/c with similar pax loads.  You can't really compare a 40-seat a/c with a 70+ seat a/c because they are intended for routes with different pax demands.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 09:25:19 PM »
Isn't the F70 earlier available than the other smaller jets?

Don't get me wrong, the Saab2000 is no bad aircraft, but in my opinion it's nothing half or full (hope this phrase is also known in english language).

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 09:51:19 PM »
Isn't the F70 earlier available than the other smaller jets?

Don't get me wrong, the Saab2000 is no bad aircraft, but in my opinion it's nothing half or full (hope this phrase is also known in english language).

I believe the BAe 146 is actually available earlier.  In fact, doesn't the F70 come much later than the F100?  The 146 is available earlier than the F100 as I recall, which is why I wound up operating over 100 of the things out of Denver in DOTM.

//I don't believe I've ever heard the phrase 'half or full' before but that could just be me being my oblivious self

munipandita

  • Former member
Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 10:53:51 PM »
Isn't the F70 earlier available than the other smaller jets?

Don't get me wrong, the Saab2000 is no bad aircraft, but in my opinion it's nothing half or full (hope this phrase is also known in english language).

Oh dude.. Yes, the Saab2000 is half or full (don't know exactly what it means but i can guess.. hehe)

The Saab2000 is a really good aircraft. They are cheap and fast, so if you keep flying them on routes less then 400nm, you can fly like 4 or 5 routes per day, or even 6 routes.. They will make a LOT of money.

I have a fleet of 32 Saab2000 and 8 ERJ-170STD, and i am making like 2 500 000 USD/week

The Saab has the advantage to be fast, so you can beat a competitor flying the same route as you, using for example 3 DHC8 with 70 seats (don't know for sure how many seats... but something like that)... So the route has a demand of 210 PAX/day.. With the Saab you'll fly the same route, but 4 times a day, so you probably will get a higher LF than the other one..


Offline raptorva

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Re: Fleet Commonality!! (Just an advise!)
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 11:56:45 AM »
I'm going for a regional airline of sorts in this game and I chose to start with the ERJ-170 as it allows for quite a large number of various size and ranged aircraft in future under the Embraer 170/175/190/195 range, all of which come under only the one commonality type.

 

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