AirwaySim
Online Airline Management Simulation
Login
Username
Password
 
or login using:
 
My Account
Username:
E-mail:
Edit account
» Achievements
» Logout
Game Credits
Credit balance: 0 Cr
Buy credits
» Credit history
» Credits FAQ

Author Topic: Fuel Prices?  (Read 1953 times)

nlgravity

  • Former member
Fuel Prices?
« on: May 23, 2010, 12:15:23 AM »
Price of fuel is too high and increasing exponentialy. And we cant pass on cost to passengers by raising prices.

Real life simulation, survivor of the fittest, or whatever comments you may have about this..... just know one thing... In real life, airlines hedge the price of fuel, not as a 'market movement call' but in order to have more certainty of annual costs. We cant do that in the game. So I suggest either introduce this feature or tweak your model to lower volatility and spikes in fuel prices.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:14:30 PM by sami »

Boomer Aires

  • Former member
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 12:17:56 AM »
+1
in one week +14,3%....thats crazy

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 12:27:58 AM »
Funny thing is, I haven't touched my airline in ATB since about Day #2, and I'm still turning a profit.  I have all the problems that small airlines have with overhead costs not being covered with so few planes (I've got just 3 running a handful of domestic routes, so nothing special, I just maintain an airline in the world so I can check on people's airlines when they have questions), I even spend an absurdly high (for my size) amount on Marketing.  So, clearly, fuel price isn't that big of a deal.

It's at $439 which is so amazingly cheap it's not even funny.  Complain when it gets to about 4 or 5 times that.  Airlines don't pass on fuel costs in the form of surcharges or even bother hedging when fuel is that cheap (that works out to about a measly $35/barrel).

Now, in regards to the actual point, you can increase pricing due to increase fuel costs.  The default pricing of a route takes some level of fuel price into account.  Hit the "Reset Pricing" button and I bet you'll see your fares shoot way up.  I just checked, and the default fares on my routes were 15% higher than they were when set up -- an amount that far exceeds the inflation that occurred in that time period.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2010, 09:23:28 AM »
There is no need to start already third (?) new thread of this. Please see the other threads a bit before opening a new one.

Offline DutchBlond

  • Members
  • Posts: 203
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 12:40:07 AM »
Well, using a great strategy like in other games, it not working in this, with most of the competitors gone also.
Even if you raise prices, the the load bottoms out 80-63%, & it wont rise.
In the game the fuel prices are simply not comparable to the revenue calculations, cost of maintenance or aircraft lease / Purchase, there seems to be a Maths mis-calculation in the game. The costs outweigh the profits able to be made, especially in parts of the world like Australia, where demand can only reach a certain level. It is simply not like The USA! India has a huge market, New Zealand does not.
There should be a fairer reflection built into the game for a balance of market in these regions if an Airline is based there.
This would also reflect the real world, where in some areas, Engineering, space, crew costs, land, buildings & fuel are cheaper (Emirates, Australia for eg)

So many have gone bankrupt & re-started, & it just gets boring. 500 in the game is also too much.
Lots of frustration around as the calculations in the game plan are not properly matched.

So i am ditching out of the game entirely, loss of revenue.
Many others incl friends want to join a new game, but others are hogging playing 2-3 games at a time, not allowing new members in.
Not a good Business model where this closes off new custom. Should be a rule play 1-2 games at a time.
Good luck guys.

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

  • Members
  • Posts: 4028
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 12:56:20 AM »
Why don't you serve Melbourne and the other big cities with huge demand?

Why do you have six different aicraft types at a total aircraft size of 36?

Are you sure the big problems are the high fuel price and people who are playing in more than one game...?


Maybe your "great strategy" isn't this great? No offense, but not serving the extreme high demand cities and fighting around while other good destinations are competition free is... not the best way to gain money.

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 01:23:42 AM »
Well, using a great strategy like in other games, it not working in this, with most of the competitors gone also.
Either the game has too many people (as you say later) or most of the competition is gone... you've got to pick one argument to take.

Quote
Even if you raise prices, the the load bottoms out 80-63%, & it wont rise.
You should be able to turn a profit with LFs in the 60-70s.  If you can't, then you've got other problems, and I think Curse has already made mention of some that seem pretty obvious, especially the 6 fleet types. With the changes made to the commonality cost hit with fleets greater than 4, unless you're playing in the high-margin international world, you're simply not going to be even remotely competitive and are flushing many millions every week down the drain just in commonality costs.

Quote
\ The costs outweigh the profits able to be made, especially in parts of the world like Australia, where demand can only reach a certain level. It is simply not like The USA! India has a huge market, New Zealand does not.
There should be a fairer reflection built into the game for a balance of market in these regions if an Airline is based there.
This would also reflect the real world, where in some areas, Engineering, space, crew costs, land, buildings & fuel are cheaper (Emirates, Australia for eg)
The game already takes into account fuel price variances by region as well as staffing cost variances by region -- i.e. it's cheaper to run an airline out of Zaire than New York.  Other the other stuff you mentioned (building, land, etc) are such small impacts to overall costs it'd be meaningless to even try to make them region-specific.

But, simple fact is, if you choose to operate in a region where, by your own admission, the demand can only reach a certain level, you've got to be willing to accept the fact that the game's going to be a lot harder.  This isn't necessarily a fault of the game, but rather of the business model in general.  There's a reason why, in real-life, Australia or New Zealand don't have the incredible carrier diversity found within the US or Europe -- the demand, and therefore the profits, just aren't there to anywhere remotely close to the same magnitude.

Quote
Many others incl friends want to join a new game, but others are hogging playing 2-3 games at a time, not allowing new members in.
Not a good Business model where this closes off new custom. Should be a rule play 1-2 games at a time.
Good luck guys.

MT#2 has 40 spots open and ATB#2 has 20 spots open.  So unless your friends number in the dozens, the lack of available spots to play at in a game-world is a pretty lousy excuse.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 01:29:15 AM by Sigma »

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 10:12:55 AM »
By the way. If we'd have real-world fuel prices in this game world, the peak fuel price would be around $1200, eventually in 2008-2009. In this world with the random/custom prices there is more variation and more "spikes" (like what is seen now) but the max. prices are much lower (general trend however is the same as in reality -> fuel prices rising slowly over time).


It's strange to see the case that certain people say that the "game is wrong" and that "all will leave", "everyone is bored" etc. when HIS airline does not make it (this member's Australian airline has made a profit in only 1 quarter in its 3 years of operation). I have seen the exact same comments from the exact same people in the past too when something has not been to their liking (aircraft ordering, fuel prices .. etc).

Unfortunately everyone cannot be pleased, and the sim cannot be extremely easy and giving huge profits all the way from start to end. But usually the problems for certain airlines are in the management - while there may be times where profits are thin, or even nonexistent, the setup is still such as it is survivable and not so harsh as in reality where airlines take huge losses every year.



ps. Staff and office costs ARE factored by country. But Australia isn't exactly a cheap country - it is in the top-15 when comparing the relative salary levels worldwide from the sim database (between Sweden and Belgium).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 10:36:37 AM by sami »

twothousandgt

  • Former member
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 08:19:11 AM »
By the way. If we'd have real-world fuel prices in this game world, the peak fuel price would be around $1200, eventually in 2008-2009. In this world with the random/custom prices there is more variation and more "spikes" (like what is seen now) but the max. prices are much lower (general trend however is the same as in reality -> fuel prices rising slowly over time).


It's strange to see the case that certain people say that the "game is wrong" and that "all will leave", "everyone is bored" etc. when HIS airline does not make it (this member's Australian airline has made a profit in only 1 quarter in its 3 years of operation). I have seen the exact same comments from the exact same people in the past too when something has not been to their liking (aircraft ordering, fuel prices .. etc).

Unfortunately everyone cannot be pleased, and the sim cannot be extremely easy and giving huge profits all the way from start to end. But usually the problems for certain airlines are in the management - while there may be times where profits are thin, or even nonexistent, the setup is still such as it is survivable and not so harsh as in reality where airlines take huge losses every year.



ps. Staff and office costs ARE factored by country. But Australia isn't exactly a cheap country - it is in the top-15 when comparing the relative salary levels worldwide from the sim database (between Sweden and Belgium).


Sami the "problem" mentioned here is quite simple and has nothing to do with fuel prices. (in 1.2) If you start an airline when the game world starts, you can dominate a city, make huge profits, and get all the new A/C you want if you're even remotely smart. If you did not start when the game world starts AND you're smart, you can make a reasonable profit and remain in business for a few years. If you're dumb and started even 2-3 months after the game world opened, you're on a long, or short, road to BK. I challenge anyone who started on day 1 of any 1.2 worlds (MT2/ATB) to restart from scratch. Simulating commercial aviation from 0 at an arbitrary date is going to favor the few who get in early and punish anyone who doesn't. JUST LIKE THE REAL WORLD. I'm not complaining, but this is the reality of the game at this time. People can take it or leave it, but that is more or less the "issue" everyone is debating.

Offline DutchBlond

  • Members
  • Posts: 203
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 03:38:04 PM »
Actually in the last major game i ended with a $10 Billion profit!

10% of the full game membership have left in both new games, & most games end up with not players re-starting, but leaving altogether, 50% average from the game stats on the opening page, actually follow it through.
Further, there is little point joining a gamer unless it is from the start, as with with other players comments.
Shame the game "Administrator" has to be so abrasive rather than make constructive comments..unable to take criticism?
But this appears to be a pattern.

In the real world, good business addresses customers concerns or offers advice rather than sarcasm.
This is a mere game...luckily the real world means i fly Internationally on many Airlines each year, & base between Sydney & London, so this is just a game for me anyhow...the real world & real Airline business is a little more receptive!

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

  • Members
  • Posts: 4028
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 03:56:37 PM »
In every thread you're offending sami, although Sigma and I have told you some of your failures.

Why don't you declare bankrupt? I need this market share from KLAX to the Australian cities!  :laugh:
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:13:38 PM by Curse »

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 04:12:30 PM »
Actually you have also previously posted very similar comments and statements about "all players getting bored", "everyone leaving", etc. without any relevance to what is actually happening (= you just seem to say those because YOU personally do not like something, same again in this thread, and you are drawing your own conclusions without any facts.). Last time you complained of the aircraft ordering system with the exact same tone and same reasonings that "many are bored and will leave" etc. And because of this I unfortunately cannot take these comments seriously.

Please read my previous post about being able to please all users. This is not an ultra-easy "gamey" game.


Proper feedback is always welcome, as I believe the long-time users know, but just saying random stuff (and "I = we") is not something that I will consider.

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 04:17:13 PM »
Simulating commercial aviation from 0 at an arbitrary date

I do acknowledge this issue and it has been talked for a long time already. There just isn't a single easy solution to it..

Offline CUR$E - God of AirwaySim

  • Members
  • Posts: 4028
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 06:11:37 PM »
I do acknowledge this issue and it has been talked for a long time already. There just isn't a single easy solution to it..

You could give me unlimited money, unlimited aircaft and one year time so I could establish some kind of "KI airline". After this year all other players can join and I beat them... ahm... they can beat me!  :-[

minerva

  • Former member
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2010, 08:01:37 PM »
I do acknowledge this issue and it has been talked for a long time already. There just isn't a single easy solution to it..

I for one am very appreciative of the balance between realism and playability in AWS and have been totally hooked on the game for months.  Having had to bankrupt and restart after making a poor decision trying to repalce 12 of my 50 aircraft (and other issues), I do feel now that I have no hope of getting very far in ATB.  I will struggle along, though; patience is so very important.

However, a constructive suggestion for restarts (apologies if this has been suggested/dismissed before): perhaps, when restarting (or starting for the first time well into the game) the player could be given more start-up capital/loan, maybe on a formula on the lines of: base start-up capital + 5% * number of game months since start / number of bankruptcies.   This would account for inflation and the difficulty of breaking into an established game, but gives no benefit for multiple bankruptcies.  Just a thought.  Love the game, even if this time I'm having a harder time.

Offline m320au

  • Members
  • Posts: 156
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 08:46:17 PM »
Actually in the last major game i ended with a $10 Billion profit!

I've resisted entering this discussion but I do think think it's worthwhile pointing out that before embarking a policy of mirroring and directly engaging your competition, it would be worthwhile first checking whether your fleet is either a) more rational, b) more modern, c) more fuel efficient or d) larger than his.

If the answer is 'no' to all four, chances are it would make better business sense to try to develop your own markets a little first instead.

I might be wrong, but, didn't you start in Sydney before me? ..

jest

  • Former member
Re: Fuel Prices?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 11:26:01 PM »
My game in MT2 is pretty much stabilized so i think i'll take the challenge and start from scratch in ATB. Let´s see what can be done.

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Fuel Prices?????????
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 12:53:11 AM »
Actually in the last major game i ended with a $10 Billion profit!
So?  

Ever heard the saying "Past performance is not indicative of future results"?

I'm normally in the Top 3 in a world, and have been struggling (comparatively speaking) this go-round in MT2.  It's a completely different scenario even flying out the DFW where I always fly out of.  v1.2, domestic-wise, is a whole different and considerably more difficult scenario.  Things that earned me wads of cash aren't doing so hot anymore.  It's still not "hard", particularly if you've got minimal competition (I've got 2 other equally-sized competitors in DFW), but with the LFs tending to be a little lower, the added competition from more people, all coupled with the decrease in revenue 25% of the day due to red-eye considerations, makes for a much more difficult (and infinitely more realistic) game in comparison to previous versions in the Domestic world.

Quote
10% of the full game membership have left in both new games, & most games end up with not players re-starting, but leaving altogether, 50% average from the game stats on the opening page, actually follow it through.

Again, So?  What's your point?  If you want to make claim about something than just come out and say it -- constructively.

If you're point is you want an easy game, I've got a copy of Aerobiz Supersonic you can have.  The game's harder it's quite likely going to get a little harder until sami as the proprietor feels he's got the right balance between a game that's so easy it can't yield long-term replayability due to boredom and a game that's too hard that it scares off newcomers.  That means it's a requirement that he makes at least 2 groups of people unhappy -- those who want an easier game and those who want a harder game.

If your point is that people leave the game... so?  Of course people do.  Find me a game, find me a piece of media of any sort, where the audience actually consistently grows or even remains the same.  I'd be impressed if you counted up more than about 5.  People will always find they don't like something, they'll bore of it, they'll find it too hard or too easy.  You can't please everybody it's simply not gonna happen.  Simple fact is that the playerbase has consistently grown across all worlds.  And simple fact is that they are restarting a lot more regularly than you think they are (as mentioned below).

Based purely on my own observations, I'd say that the retention is actually better with these games than in games past after so many weeks of play.  I figured it'd be a lot worse than this actually considering that there's 2 very similar worlds going on each with 500 players.  When it was announced that the 2nd world would be a similar world of equal size, I figured that in short order they'd both fall to about 350-400 at the absolute most -- yet here we are after a number of weeks with still mostly-full worlds.

And, besides, weren't you in your last post just complaining that the game-worlds were full and your friends couldn't join in or some nonsense?

Quote
Further, there is little point joining a gamer unless it is from the start, as with with other players comments.

This is a point that everyone knows (that it's harder) and has been discussed ad nauseum.  Instead of just complaining about it and repeatedly remarking on it like you're the first one to ever point it out, perhaps you should make some constructive comments on how the situation could be improved in the countless threads on the subjects.  And, just a hint, whining about how the game is "broken" because you can't succeed isn't a "constructive comment".

But, on the point of people re-starting, clearly a lot more people are restarting than you think.  Just open up a game-world and look at the number of bankruptcies.  Every real-day there are dozens and dozens of them.  Every single real-day -- dozens.  Yet the world populations are down less than 10%.  So clearly a lot of people are finding it worthwhile to start up again (and/or new people starting late), and many have done quite well.  Funny how, despite all the bankruptcies, the Forums aren't packed full of whiners about the game being broken for them.  Maybe they recognize it as something other than a fault of the game, hm?  Maybe, just maybe, the sky isn't falling, and your crazy assumption on what "everyone" thinks just aren't quite what you think they are.... just throwing that out there as a possibility.

Quote
Shame the game "Administrator" has to be so abrasive rather than make constructive comments..unable to take criticism?
But this appears to be a pattern.
Pot.  Meet Kettle.

Sami's job is to make the most people possible happy, not necessarily you.  If his decisions happen to make you happy; that's great.  If not, oh well.  There's always the button at the top-right of the header.

Actually, I take that back, Sami's job is whatever the heck he wants it to be.  If he wants to p*** everyone off, so be it.  That's most definitely his prerogative.

Quote
In the real world, good business addresses customers concerns or offers advice rather than sarcasm.
This is a mere game...luckily the real world means i fly Internationally on many Airlines each year, & base between Sydney & London, so this is just a game for me anyhow...the real world & real Airline business is a little more receptive!
Unfortunately it's plainly obvious that it's not "just a game" to you.  Because, if it were, you wouldn't whine so much when it didn't go your way.  If you're as important as you seem want us to believe you are then you should be mature enough to know that it's important to recognize where one screwed up (even if you have to ask for advice, there's nothing wrong with that), deal with them, and do better next time.  Not whine about it.  If you think there's a systematic problem then discuss it, again, not whine about it.

Remember, it's "just a game".
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 01:03:12 AM by Sigma »

twothousandgt

  • Former member
Re: Fuel Prices?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 01:10:09 AM »
+10? Wow Sigma just...wow 8)

Offline GjedDa

  • Members
  • Posts: 214
Re: Fuel Prices?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 08:14:17 PM »
Pretty sure im just so "sucky" in this game, So my tactic is so Random/common that I cant earn money like you guys, But HELLO... Fuel Prices are 350-400 and people is going Banckrupt ? I just cant see how its possible ? Steady earning more and more money every game year. Cant even feel that the fuel is "high". If it would be 800-1000 Then yes.. but 400 ???

 

WARNING! This website is not compatible with the old version of Internet Explorer you are using.

If you are using the latest version please turn OFF the compatibility mode.