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Author Topic: High Density Seating  (Read 1845 times)

auerbacs

  • Former member
High Density Seating
« on: May 07, 2010, 07:09:47 PM »
I've been digging through the forums and I can't seem to find an answer to this question:

What length of flight make passengers reluctant to take high-capacity seating? I assume it's dictated by flight time, not distance, right?

And just as a clarification, does high-density seating affect CI as well as LFs on that particular route?

Thanks!

Offline Sami

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Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 07:19:08 PM »
Try something less than 2.5h flt.time.

But again you can compensate this with lower pricing.

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 09:07:50 PM »
Thanks Sami

Conversely, if I'm flying a 1.5 hour flight, is there any advantage to premium economy. I know that sounds ridiculous, but there's one airport with a smaller runway that I want to fly to. Given that smaller runway, I can either fly 145 people in standard economy or 130 people in premium? It's a small drop in quantity to pay to upgrade to premium. The question is, would my ability to raise prices (or the extra demand I steal from my competitor who is probably flying standard seats) offset the slight loss in capacity (from 145 to 130)?

Anybody have an opinion?

Offline Sigma

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Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 09:26:17 PM »
Customers have a minimum demand -- i.e. they really don't like to fly high-density for 4 hours -- but they don't demand premium service within their own class -- i.e. if you offer better seating than your competition they don't particularly care.   As long as their needs are being met, that's about the best you can do.  Any pax you can steal way with better seating is very minimal and won't be equal to the ~10% revenue hit you'll take by reducing your seats, nor will you be able to charge an appreciable premium for said seats.  Consumers are price-conscious per class (i.e.  you can charge more for C than Y of course) but they don't care to particularly pay a premium for your "better" seating in Economy.

So all in all, you're better off flying as many Y Standard seats as you can and being competitive on price rather than service.

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2010, 05:45:44 AM »
Thanks Sigma, that's exactly what I wanted to know!

Grimvisage

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2010, 12:21:01 PM »
Customers have a minimum demand -- i.e. they really don't like to fly high-density for 4 hours -- but they don't demand premium service within their own class -- i.e. if you offer better seating than your competition they don't particularly care.   As long as their needs are being met, that's about the best you can do.  Any pax you can steal way with better seating is very minimal and won't be equal to the ~10% revenue hit you'll take by reducing your seats, nor will you be able to charge an appreciable premium for said seats.  Consumers are price-conscious per class (i.e.  you can charge more for C than Y of course) but they don't care to particularly pay a premium for your "better" seating in Economy.

So all in all, you're better off flying as many Y Standard seats as you can and being competitive on price rather than service.

So what's the point of having luxury seats? They're just money down the drain? And if I put standard seats instead of premium on a cross-Atlantic flight but lower my prices, would I actually make more money? This seems ridiculous.

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2010, 12:28:17 PM »
And that should be changed for version 1.3 I think.

Last week I flew with Vueling airlines From Amsterdam to Barcelona and back, and I will NEVER EVER fly with them again. I wouldn't be surprised if they use the oldest A320 fleet at the moment, they have High Density seating, with tables not able to go up or down (broken), a lot of tear and wear on the seats themselves, Leg space... never heared of, strange sounds in the AC which I never heared before (And I regurlary fly a A320 family jet), Unfriendly Staff that can't speak english (Yes even the required safety lecture was something between Catalan, Spanish and some words in English) and both outbound and inbound our flight was late without a small "Sorry for the delay" from anyone.

No way... I won't fly them any more. And that does include Iberia as they run a codeshare.

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 04:14:17 PM »
I agree, I avoid LCC at all cost when flying more than 1.5 hours.
And I'd rather pay the extra money to fly with an Airline that has newer aircraft and a good rep for having good seat configs.

There is a huge difference between Virgin Atlantic and say, Swiss or Air France. VA also markets their space/seating to be superior to their competitors....
and it is....

ksliu9

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 05:24:47 PM »
I agree, I avoid LCC at all cost when flying more than 1.5 hours.
And I'd rather pay the extra money to fly with an Airline that has newer aircraft and a good rep for having good seat configs.

There is a huge difference between Virgin Atlantic and say, Swiss or Air France. VA also markets their space/seating to be superior to their competitors....
and it is....

In Asia, it's a different story. Of course flying LCC withinn 1.5 hr is good, or say in a different way, fly LCC more than 1.5 hr is not comfortable, but there are many routes within SE Asia + Pacific are more than 1.5 hr. On average about 3 to 4 hr. Some are even 5 hr. Say, Jetstar fly from Singapore to Perth ( > 5 hr), or from Singapore to Melbourne (via Darwin) using .... A320 with high density (180 seats!!!) Not to say those extreme case, for a normal route, e.g. SIN - HKG about 3 hr 40min,  all LCC uses high density A320 (180 seats) and the loading is always more than 90%!

GDK

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 01:48:04 AM »
In Asia, it's a different story. Of course flying LCC withinn 1.5 hr is good, or say in a different way, fly LCC more than 1.5 hr is not comfortable, but there are many routes within SE Asia + Pacific are more than 1.5 hr. On average about 3 to 4 hr. Some are even 5 hr. Say, Jetstar fly from Singapore to Perth ( > 5 hr), or from Singapore to Melbourne (via Darwin) using .... A320 with high density (180 seats!!!) Not to say those extreme case, for a normal route, e.g. SIN - HKG about 3 hr 40min,  all LCC uses high density A320 (180 seats) and the loading is always more than 90%!

Maybe because not everyone can afford to fly comfortably. While low cost carrier are making good money, it doesn't mean that other airlines don't. Both have their own market. MAS fly A330 on KUL-HKG also have LF of 80% above.

damar_cahsolo

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 02:21:19 AM »
Here in the U.S, we have one exception: jetBlue :D It's an LCC that provides better service than regular airline such as: AA, Continental, Delta. Sure jetBlue doesn't provide you with free hot meal, but you have access to satellite TV (DirecTV) and satellite radio (XM) on every seat. And their fleet is fairly new, I think it's must be less than 5 years on average. Seating pitch is generous as well: 34 inch :D Compared to Delta or Continental.... Don't know about AA, but their planes look old to me....

For those full-service airlines, I'm still in the opinion that Asian-based Airlines offer the best service. I mean, take a look at the Skytrax five star ratings airlines. I guess the list speaks for itself :D

tm07x

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 07:12:31 AM »
Here in the U.S, we have one exception: jetBlue :D It's an LCC that provides better service than regular airline such as: AA, Continental, Delta. Sure jetBlue doesn't provide you with free hot meal, but you have access to satellite TV (DirecTV) and satellite radio (XM) on every seat. And their fleet is fairly new, I think it's must be less than 5 years on average. Seating pitch is generous as well: 34 inch :D Compared to Delta or Continental.... Don't know about AA, but their planes look old to me....

For those full-service airlines, I'm still in the opinion that Asian-based Airlines offer the best service. I mean, take a look at the Skytrax five star ratings airlines. I guess the list speaks for itself :D

I agree with you on JetBlue. But they don't really fly a very tight configuration of their 320 fleet. I guess the 6 seats taken out is why you get that extra pitch.
AA usually have nice planes, especially on the longer flights, LAX - JFK etc. Their service is pretty good too.
Delta is horrible IMO and Continental has good service but their planes are a bit old.

Another LCC that is amazing is Virgin America. Their planes, seating, service is beyond amazing. The internet actually WORKS too! :)
Southwest is not bad either.

Like you said, pretty much no western airline can compete with the likes of Singapore Airlines, Cathay, Emirates, Ethiad etc etc

Too bad aws is limited to just pax and demand period. and not pax demand pr price. Which is more or less the common way ppl fly.

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2010, 12:17:15 AM »
Here in the U.S, we have one exception: jetBlue :D It's an LCC that provides better service than regular airline such as: AA, Continental, Delta. Sure jetBlue doesn't provide you with free hot meal, but you have access to satellite TV (DirecTV) and satellite radio (XM) on every seat. And their fleet is fairly new, I think it's must be less than 5 years on average. Seating pitch is generous as well: 34 inch :D Compared to Delta or Continental.... Don't know about AA, but their planes look old to me....

For those full-service airlines, I'm still in the opinion that Asian-based Airlines offer the best service. I mean, take a look at the Skytrax five star ratings airlines. I guess the list speaks for itself :D

IMO jetBlue, AirTran, and Southwest all are at least as comfortable as the US majors for domestic travel, and often provide better customer service as well.  Like jetBlue, AirTran also has a fairly low fleet age.  jetBlue's average in March was 4.6 years.  AirTran's was 6 years last August.  On the other hand, Southwest's average fleet age is 14 years.

ReedME

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 02:32:09 PM »
If you are looking for something that comes close to the asian airlines Qantas is an easy bet I believe it also holds a 5 star rating, but I could be wrong :) JetStar is a LCC but to me it is quite comfortable and I fly with them frequently. However I am of the opinion for comfort and in some cases service you can't go much further than virgin group and the manner in which they look after you :)

DudeMcDude

  • Former member
Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 08:14:47 AM »
If you are looking for something that comes close to the asian airlines Qantas is an easy bet I believe it also holds a 5 star rating, but I could be wrong :) JetStar is a LCC but to me it is quite comfortable and I fly with them frequently. However I am of the opinion for comfort and in some cases service you can't go much further than virgin group and the manner in which they look after you :)

Ok, so it's off topic, but Jetstart isn't that great, but it's not bad either... particularly if you get a good price.  My preference over Qantas, Jetstar and Tiger is Virgin Blue.  It's got the balance right - decent fares, quality and service.  I avoid Tiger like a plague... they have a habit of listing a flight at one time and then shifting it eg list at 5pm and then 3 weeks out move it to 11pm. This happened to me a lot.

So the point is some customers go for price, some for brand, some for service/quality etc, and some for a combination of all three.  LCCs have their place and the reality is... more and more 'full service' airlines on sub 4hr flights are just LCCs wrapped in legacy 'full service' brands.. particularly in Europe and North America.

Cheers

DudeMcDude

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 08:28:29 AM »
I love to fly LCC actually... When I go to the UK I always fly LCC just because a easyJet ticket is cheaper then Eurostar... even with a staff ticket.
And I would do a 2 hour easyJet flight as well.
But longer then 2 hours I would have to know exactly what to expect. I know EZY have a new fleet and I never experienced anything negative which was the airlines fault. But next time to BCN I think I'll do a KLM.

Offline JonnyAngel

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Re: High Density Seating
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 11:27:33 AM »
Oh lord, now you have got me jumping into the mix. My recommendation from the Great Frozen North (well not 'frozen', its almost summer) is porter (yes, with a lower case 'p'). And this is not just from a former employee (yes, biased) but they are fantastic. brand new D8Q4s, leather seating, 34 inch pitch, meals (well snack boxes) on all segments, most of which are just over an hour (you wanna see FAs hustle - watch these guys do full service on a packed -70 seats - plane in just about 30/35 minutes cruise YTZ to YOW), complimentary wine and beer, actual glass glasses and china mugs...and this is for a single class cabin.

Crazy thing, they usually are on the routes they fly, the same price as or cheaper than their US or Canadian counterparts. And those Q400s can move. Consistently beat ACs 320s gate to gate on the Toronto/Ottawa and Toronto/MTL runs and you get off right downtown TO.

okay, enough gushing....they just rock.

 

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