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Author Topic: What I love about this game  (Read 2252 times)

yycvor

  • Former member
What I love about this game
« on: April 24, 2010, 05:21:45 PM »
 2 different airlines, part of the same alliance, HQ'ed at the same airport, who like to flood markets almost exactly to the 200% rule.  Its really fun.  Anyone else agreee?   End Sarcasm.

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 05:44:16 PM »
2 different airlines, part of the same alliance, HQ'ed at the same airport, who like to flood markets almost exactly to the 200% rule.  Its really fun.  Anyone else agreee?   End Sarcasm.

If you have a genuine issue then post the details or PM SAMI so he can have a look, as it is there is rule regarding flooding and rules relating to airlines of the same alliance involved in  dumping routes to force other airlines out or to force an airline into bankruptcy.   I know its easy to get emotional over this game especially when you feel like your the one being forced into a corner where you will ewither have to release the route of worse bankrupt you airline, neither of which is very fair on any airline, but you need to be factual and try not to let bias get in the way of clear facts that will be needed to investigate your issue.  :)


Filippo

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 06:54:54 PM »
just a question - if you do not flood routes, how do you bk your competition? :P

I'm not a big fan of this competition rule as it's just a game! I know as well that people may get upset but, the strongest wins - it's like that in nature too. Sorry for being big airlines that want to dominate their hubs.

Anyway, it's a rule so we have to follow it
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:02:13 PM by Filippo »

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 07:02:57 PM »
I understand the flooding of routes. However when two airlines from the same HQ airport, are in the same alliance and flying similer common routes, I find it a little un-fair. And unrealistic.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 07:07:44 PM by yycvor »

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 07:06:12 PM »
I understand the flooding of routes. However when two airlines from the same HQ airport, in the same alliance are doing it, I find it a little un-fair.

As mentioned, there is a rule on this.  No single airline OR alliance is allowed to put more than 200% on a route.

So, if the rules are being followed, there should be no impact to you by having 2 members of the same alliance in your airport aside from the fact that they could perhaps do it a little faster than a single one could.

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 07:07:49 PM »
Yes, absolutely. If you talk to your alliance founders they can sort it out

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 07:16:08 PM »
I just looked at CYYZ and very few of your routes are even met close to 100% of demand, let alone 200%.

So I thought maybe you were talking about routes you weren't yet running but maybe wanted to.... But I couldn't find a single route in the Top 10 that was remotely close to 200% full and, again, almost all weren't even at 100% yet.

So I checked which airlines were in the same alliance in CYYZ... And found you're referring to Danair Canada and Sky Train.  And they share a SINGLE route.  Just one:  CYYZ-KLGA.  And, even combined, they only supply 120% of the demand.   So they're not even close to the rule yet.

EDIT:  Missed one -- they also both fly to Ottawa, a fairly small route.  Again, same situation though -- they don't even approach 200% combined.

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 07:48:29 PM »
Sigma, Of course MY routes are not at 100% demand, Im bleeding out here, after a great start. My routes are not the ones in question. Im not one to call out names, however you did it for me (not appreciated). Everything is based off of airline staff efficiency, my numbers dont jive to what yours are. Yes LGA was the route only route in question. I see 1458 seats flown on certain days, which is about 160-170% So yes its close but not over to being 200%, again this is based on what I show as an estimated passenger demand.

Thats not my concern, its within the rules.  I may have not stated my main point correctly, due to frustration. I dont feel that its fair, or realistic at all for two airlines to even be apart of the same alliance if they are based in the same country, let alone the same airport. As this is what happens, YYZ-LGA one day, ATL, ORD, LAX, MIA, LAS, LHR, FRA, AMS, NRT the next...
Now with all the finger pointing aside, does anyone else feel that the alliance rules are unfair to great portion of players, or should I just shut up now? :)    (feel free to tell me so)    

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 08:02:09 PM »
Quote
Now with all the finger pointing aside, does anyone else feel that the alliance rules are unfair to great portion of players

There are no "Alliance Rules".

An Alliance is not allowed to supply any more seats on a route than a singular airline could -- 200%.  So they're no more of a threat to you than a singular airline would be on a particular route basis.

As a matter of fact, you're actually better off this way because it's a LOT easier to steal passengers away from an alliance that's splitting up that 200% than if a singular airline had 200%, simply because of the way that passengers have such a strong preference for the number of daily flights that are made.  So, if such a time came where you were supply 200% yourself, and they were supplying 100% each, you would actually have a significant competitive advantage.

It's also very, very rare for an alliance to have 2 members from the same airport as it usually ends up in eventual in-fighting.  And now with the lack of multi-leg routes, the odds of multiple Alliance partners on the same routes is a LOT smaller than it ever was in the past.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 08:14:44 PM by Sigma »

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 08:43:11 PM »
Sigma, I guess I feel that it might be time to discuss the idea of having alliance rules. I mean would we ever see Air Canada and WestJet in Star alliance together or with BA and Virgin in One world together? No and even if, they wouldnt be sharing routes. The whole point of alliances is so that you can offer flights in regions and areas that you dont have the means to fly in too. 

And while I fully agree with your points above Its all fine and dandy in theory, and how its rare for two airlines to be based in the same airport and being part of the same alliance is rare. But it is occuring....

And I can also see how it might lead up to eventual in-fighting, and that I would have a significant competitive advantage if I could offer 200% alone but I draw a loss as to how some players would get to that point if these partners start doing this to every route imaginable. Which they would be free to do so if there are no rules or guidelines written.  Im not talking about my situation alone as I admire their ablility to aquire 15 aircraft in 6-7 months and flood key routes, but im talking in general. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 08:47:39 PM by yycvor »

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 09:00:10 PM »

And I can also see how it might lead up to eventual in-fighting, and that I would have a significant competitive advantage if I could offer 200% alone but I draw a loss as to how some players would get to that point if these partners start doing this to every route imaginable. Which they would be free to do so if there are no rules or guidelines written.  Im not talking about my situation alone as I admire their ablility to aquire 15 aircraft in 6-7 months and flood key routes, but im talking in general.  


I understand but, again, Alliances are subject to the exact same rules as independent airlines.  So it would be completely unfair to have "Alliance" rules and not have identical rules for individual airlines.  There's no difference (with the rule that no Alliance can act any different than a single airline on a route) between allowing 2 airlines of a single alliance in a base, and allowing 2 airlines in a base period -- the total number of seats that can be placed on your routes against you is exactly the same.  And could actually be even less if both airlines wanted to put 200% each as allowed.

There's ZERO differences between 2 alliance members flooding "every route imaginable" and any of the other airlines at YYZ doing exactly the same thing, the net impact to you is identical.  And, as a matter of fact, if they were 2 "independent" airlines they're actually allowed to put even more seats on a route to force you out.  You could actually look at it has having a net BENEFIT by having these 2 airlines Allied together because, apart, they could put 200% each onto a route rather than just 200% combined.

All you have right now is 2 players in the same Alliance sharing a base.  So far there's been absolutely no negative repercussions to arise because of it that wouldn't be at least as likely to happen even if they weren't in the same Alliance (in fact, I'd bet they were on those routes before they were even in the Alliance).  And, I can't envision anything that even could occur that, again, wouldn't be at least as likely to happen if they weren't in the same Alliance.

And, for the record, not that it matters, but there are countless occurrences in real-life of fellow Alliance members sharing routes.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 09:05:56 PM by Sigma »

Offline Runner

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 09:15:07 PM »
I feel the need to reply to this topic, as it is about my airline/base/alliance  ;)

@yycvor: first of all, we didn't base at the same airport on purpose, we only found out after a couple of (real) days. So nothing intentional there! Second, as Sigma pointed out, there's only 1 routes on which we fly together, at max capacity (YYZ-LGA). So it may look like we're plotting againt you, but we are really not breaking any rules here! (besides, the LGA routes isn't really making any money for me right now, as Sqaure Air joined in and flooded the place)

Off course me and Lurkmat (Skytrain) are discussing our tactics, but we are just trying to play the game in a normal and fair way!

Regards,
Runner

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2010, 09:23:27 PM »
Runner,
No need to defend yourself,  I intentionally never mentioned names or airlines, as I know that its within the rules to operate as you are. I do know its not a direct attack at anyone. I'm stating that it could be viewed as thats whats is occuring, but Sigma has pointed out the facts to me and I feel quite enlightened now. 

My only question is... early on in the game, are you both benefiting financially from being in an alliance, vs someone who isnt?   As rate of growth seems quite grand vs us smaller players in the same airport. Or is it that you have much more experience and better initial routes?

Offline Runner

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2010, 09:28:01 PM »
Alright! No hard feelings here!  :)

It's the second one. We both have a lot of experience, so we know were to go first ;) The alliance thing is just something that looks cool, brings people together and gives you are veeery slight CI boost.

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2010, 09:29:50 PM »
Runner,
No need to defend yourself,  I intentionally never mentioned names or airlines, as I know that its within the rules to operate as you are. I do know its not a direct attack at anyone. I'm stating that it could be viewed as thats whats is occuring, but Sigma has pointed out the facts to me and I feel quite enlightened now. 

My only question is... early on in the game, are you both benefiting financially from being in an alliance, vs someone who isnt? I would assume so with a higher company image.  As rate of growth seems quite grand vs us smaller players in the same airport. Or is really the fact you have much more experience and better initial routes

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2010, 10:15:52 PM »
Runner,
As I had expected that would be the case. I agree the whole alliance thing adds to the thought of being a bigger and more serious airline.  8) However with that slight CI boost of being as part of an alliance together at the same airport. That alone gives you guys a bit of an advantage, over others operating initially in that airport. I dont hold that against you guys, as slight or as big of a difference it maybe.  Regardless, I wish the best of luck to you all.    ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 10:26:04 PM by yycvor »

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2010, 11:12:07 PM »
Runner,
As I had expected that would be the case. I agree the whole alliance thing adds to the thought of being a bigger and more serious airline.  8) However with that slight CI boost of being as part of an alliance together at the same airport. That alone gives you guys a bit of an advantage, over others operating initially in that airport. I dont hold that against you guys, as slight or as big of a difference it maybe.  Regardless, I wish the best of luck to you all.    ;D

The CI boost is extremely small.  In the many games I've been in, I've never noticed the slightest difference whether I was in an Alliance or not.  In fact, I would tell you that there was no difference if not for the fact that sami has said that there's a very small one.  In my opinion, the fees you pay to the Alliance are more than any (if any) benefit you see on the pax side.

yycvor

  • Former member
Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2010, 12:30:14 AM »
Gotcha, Not having been in a alliance (yet) I wouldnt know any better.  So in your expert opinions, what are the benifits?

Offline Sigma

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2010, 02:41:13 AM »
There really are no tangible benefits.

The closest real benefit would be some help taking someone out -- and/or deterring someone from going after you.  If everyone else in your airport is in an Alliance and you're not, you're probably going to be the first one everyone goes after because they don't have to worry about any other airlines "coming after them" in the name of revenge.  The rules on flooding as well as the removal of multi-legs makes that a MUCH harder proposition to do though.

Other than that, it's simple a little facet of the game that gives it a bit more fun.  Another competitive aspect of "My alliance is 'better' than yours".  

You may also find it easier to discuss tactics with those in your Alliance (every Alliance gets a private Forum) so that you don't "show your hand" to your competition via some question you're wondering about.

Offline Tiberius

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Re: What I love about this game
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2010, 05:59:35 AM »
"I dont feel that its fair, or realistic at all for two airlines to even be apart of the same alliance if they are based in the same country, let alone the same airport."

Star Alliance: US Airways, United Airlines, Continental.  Wikipedia says that JetBlue is a potentially interested member.

Just thought I would throw that out there.  That's 3 based in the same country, although none share hubs.

Some alliance members have chosen to do regional and international airlines from the same airport to complement one another, although your concerns are something to consider.

 

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