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Author Topic: Is it against the rules......  (Read 2288 times)

madeinwales

  • Former member
Is it against the rules......
« on: April 02, 2010, 05:15:20 PM »
... to "over supply a route? :o I've just received a message, an extract is shown below.

"... Perhaps you are not aware of the rules of competition but you are actually oversupplying the route. If this is a 2 leg flight i suggest you change your route so it's only fuel uplift in BCN "


auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 07:07:53 PM »
You can oversupply a route if it's the AB leg of an ABCBA flight. Even if it's just an ABA flight, you can supply 200% of demand. I doubt that you're actually breaking the rules. People tend to whine.

madeinwales

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 07:18:39 PM »
 ;D Thanks, didn't think I was, and as I'm making 57k per round trip it doesn't suggest I'm vastly overloading the route

Offline Sami

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Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 08:29:59 PM »
rules related to this are (clearly?) posted in the Manual. I believe that msg is just a poor attempt to say 'get off my route since I am not making profit'..  ;D

itsux

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2010, 08:00:04 PM »
Thanks for jumping to conclusion Sami  ???... anyway here are the facts and feel free to correct me if I have interpreted the rules wrongly.

The route in question is a ABCBA route. I sent a message regarding the BCB part. On BCB there is a demand for approximately 140 pax and it's operated by an A/C configured for 325. If you are making 57k profit it's surely not from B-C-B sales. Although every time I check the demand for the route in question it's different and jumping up and down between 130-190 pax/day so i guess it's there on the limit for the 200% rule.

The whole point in sending you a message was to inform you of the rules which I suspected that you were unaware of, not a cheap trick to fight of competition. I also suggested in my message that you switch to a smaller A/C if not making it to a fueling stop, not that you "get off my route since I am not making profit".

I fail to see how any of the posts in this tread are relevant to the question you asked. In my opinion you're taking a quote out of context and getting emotional responses. Mostly people guessing what is and what is not without knowing any of the facts. If you want to know the facts you can simply read the rules in the manual and check the figures on the the route and then make a decision based on that rather than getting irrelevant information on what Sami and other experts "believe". If you are still unsure then post the facts and get a relevant answer.

And Sami, as I understand you're running this show, how about we start acting a little bit more professional? Perhaps you should dig up a little more information before you start bashing.

Good luck!

« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 11:36:11 PM by itsux »

Offline Sami

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Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 09:15:26 AM »
And Sami, as I understand you're running this show, how about we start acting a little bit more professional? Perhaps you should dig up a little more information before you start bashing.

Nobody has been bashing anything here, especially when there hasn't been even talk about which routes or which airlines are in question. My post was the 'usual' guess of the situation.

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 07:30:46 PM »
Given that it's only one plane, it's not significantly over 200% of demand and it's the part of a multileg route, it seems clear to me that madeinwales is certainly not violating the spirit of the rule. As far as I know, he is not targeting you directly because you are a smaller opponent. Itsux, all of this comes down to etiquette at the end of the day, and I'm far more offended by your name-calling towards Sami and your whining about madeinwales' route than I am by anything that madeinwales has done.

itsux

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 01:13:53 AM »
First of all I haven't called Sami anything so what is it exactly you are offended by? I stated that I think it's unprofessional to start giving out verdicts on peoples intentions without knowing even half the story - as a representative for this website. But by all means, if you want to feel offended by the end of the day, there's nothing I can do to stop you.

Secondly, In what way have I been "whining", as you describe it, about someones route? And how did you possibly manage to get offended about that? If there is a rule we are told to adhere to is it not within our right to argue that others should follow these rules too? Or should we all take this statement from you as a general rule that if someone in the future has a complaint about the 200% rule, that we should ask you to arbitrarily decide if the 200% mark was passed "significantly" or just passed and if you consider it "whining" rather than a complaint? But please elaborate on the "spirit of the rule" so that we all know for the future how far we can go passed the 200% mark before it becomes something else than "whining".

Let's get the facts straight. I looked at one of my routes and saw that an opponent was, according to the (actual) rules of the game, over supplying. I then sent a message to that opponent explaining what the rules were and suggested that he/she either changed it to a fuel stop or switched to a smaller A/C in case he/she had missed what the (actual) rules were. That person then posted a question with part of my message, with good intentions I'm sure, to find out what the administrator had to say about it. You and Sami then answered the question explaining what or where the rules were and adding that you were pretty much certain, amazingly without knowing any of the facts, that that person had not broken the rules. That person then answered me back, without actually understanding the rules I must assume, referring to your answers regarding whether or not the rules had been broken. Which by your standards, I'm sure sounds just about right.



 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 01:36:24 AM by itsux »

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 02:28:51 AM »
Okay itsux. I was responding to your accusation that Sami was "bashing" you, which I found silly given that he didn't even know who you were and he was only responding to the information that he had. I don't begrudge the fact that you pointed out the violation, however slight it may have been, of the rule. It was merely the tone that you went about confronting madeinwales and then sami, which was certainly not polite; I personally found it confrontational. I just think that there's no need for that in a game, especially one that really utilizes community in an enjoyable manner.

That said, I am probably equally guilty in the tone of my responses, so I apologize for that.

I would also point out that the demand numbers that you see are not necessarily exact, and it's theoretically possible that madeinwales is breaking no rule if we consider his data rather than yours, which is another reason that the conversation should be conducted in the most polite way possible. Why not ask him what he is showing for demand on that route? Wouldn't that be the first step?

Anyway, I apologize if I was confrontational in my messages. Best of luck to both you and madeinwales.

itsux

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 12:32:26 AM »
Well that was my whole point. He didn't have any information other than the indication that someone had a complaint about a potential over supply, so jumping from that to suggesting that someone had some ill willed plan to to lure someone off a route I think was uncalled for. Regardless if names or airlines had been posted. This put me in a bad spot with madeinwales, who now could assumed that that I was trying to trick her. A simple explanation of the rules or a request for the route figures I think would have been more appropriate. You saw it as confrontational. Sure it was! It was critique. We all need it sometimes and I'm sure Sami can handle it - even though he didn't really seem to agree.  ;)

The critique I'm getting from you is that I could be more polite in my posts. Point taken! Perhaps I was a bit harsh on madeinwales. Honestly I didn't have that intention, to me it was just to the point.

When it comes to the correctness of the the figures, with an accuracy of 95% it should still be "over supplying" within the 5-6% margin. But sure, it would had been more polite to start by asking. Personally I think 200% should be an upper limit. There shouldn't be any reason for an airline to fly routes with a max potential LF of 50%. Especially If you consider that you also have competition on that route, meaning that you can't over charge. 

Anyway, I think we're all passed this now. I'm not making a big deal about the over supplying. As I said, I saw it and tried to correct it, which of course would had been to my benefit. When it comes to etiquette regarding all this, as you mentioned, we just have different opinions about what is what.

Best of luck to you!   

Offline schro

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Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 02:39:19 AM »
There shouldn't be any reason for an airline to fly routes with a max potential LF of 50%.

Demand estimates displayed to you aren't always accurate. Actual demand can vary by as much as 50% from the demand you see in route planning, meaning a 200% loaded route could potentially have a LF of up to 75%...

Of course, in Jet Age, you can print money at a 50% loadfactor...

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 04:48:26 AM »
itsux: first of all I just wanted to ask you why you cared? yes, he might have oversupplied it but who cares?all you do is one of two things; pull out or fight back, simple as that. If you still think that rules are rules and that they should be followed and that he should pull back on the supply he is giving, then tough luck and welcome to the real world. I can name AT LEAST 55 routes that have the same properties that you describe this one as having. the biggest one I can think of: SAS Scandinavian flying a route with a demand of maybe 10/day with a 170-seat MD82. I see it all the time in games too. yes, it may be unfair but guess what: THAT'S LIFE. LIFE IS A BIATCHE, so deal with it. And also, I suggest you start thinking from Sami's point of view as well before you assume he is guessing. His answer is a very general, no-side-taken response that I think anyone would give, and if I was in his position I would have done the same. And he also wasn't suggesting anything. he was making a joke about what your message could have meant. I would have said the very same thing and I know for a fact that it wasn't meant to suggest that you were being greedy. And this nonsense about sami needing to be "more professional".......wow. just wow. If this was in RL and instead of AWS airlines they were real airlines, then I think YOU should wake up and smell the air because it is filled with UNFAIRNESS.

I'm really quite sorry if I come off as being a complete nose-job, but really. wake up to reality dude. ;)

good luck in JA guys and possibly see you in future v1.2 games!

Cheers,
ICEcold

itsux

  • Former member
Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
Really guys! I understand that you all look up to Sami but this shiny-knight-horseriding-come-to-his-rescue is really starting to get out of hand. I'm sure he's a nice guy and he sure is running a great game, but I'll stand by that opinion any day. He can take it or leave it, no hard feelings. If it's too tough for you to see me criticize Sami then I suggest you revisit your own view on life, that thing with the "biatche" and "dealing" with things.  ;)

When it comes to the matter of why I care, the simple answer is because it would be to my benefit. Simple as that. I wasn't sitting at home swearing and crying because someone wasn't "fighting fare". Real airlines/companies do this all the time! Price dumping, state aid, loyalty programs etc. Airlines sue each other all the time because like in AWS the real world is full of rules and anytime an airline can use one of those rules to their advantage they'll seize the opportunity, which falls under your second option - fight back. So no I don't really agree with your view of reality - I think I have a pretty good idea actually, of what the air smells like.

Good day to you and good luck!  
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 10:53:17 PM by itsux »

Offline Sami

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Re: Is it against the rules......
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 11:35:03 AM »
mmkay, getting a bit off-topic already and I don't see any benefit of further discussion.. so let's give it a rest.

 

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