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Author Topic: Viennair: not playing a fair game  (Read 5337 times)

munipandita

  • Former member
Viennair: not playing a fair game
« on: March 10, 2010, 10:35:26 PM »
Hi everyone.

I am here to complain about the company called Viennair.

It's based at the same airport as me (Vienna, Austria) and another 4 one..

Green Airways (GAW), Pekanuss (PKS), Catita Express (EXP), Viennair (VIE), Perseus Airlines (PRS)

And Viennair doesn't know how to play a fair game. He is saturating every routes with a huge offer os seats, but those routes has only 120 pax/day average.

Some examples of routes that this player is saturating:

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/LOWW/LIMC

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/LOWW/EDDT (absurd!)

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/LOWW/LKPR

http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Routes/Planning/LOWW/EDDM (there is no need to put an A300.. Or put then when no other player is flying the route)

You put an A300 in a route with 1000 pax a day, it's ok.. But put an A300 in a route with 120 pax a day, AND another airline is flying the route.. There is one route that 2 airlines are flying it, i think they are in an agreement, or at least, they are not saturating the route.. And then comes this player and put a huge A300..

I don't what this player is doing is fair.. This is not a good competition. Too bad.


Online Sami

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 10:42:51 PM »
Please read the game rules page before posting such public rants about other players, as that is not very polite: http://www.airwaysim.com/game/Manual/General/Rules/ 

Because the other player is NOT acting against the game rules / 'fair play', as we can see:

LOWW/LIMC
  - demand 230/day
  - he supplies 149/day
  -> BELOW the daily demand.

LOWW/EDDT
  - demand 120/day
  - he supplies 120/day
  -> BELOW/AT the daily demand.

LOWW/LKPR
  - demand 120/day
  - he supplies 120/day
  -> BELOW/AT the daily demand.

LOWW/EDDM
  - demand 250/day
  - he supplies 280/day
  -> Same as the daily demand.


None of the routes you mentioned is oversupplied by him. => no actions

munipandita

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 10:57:21 PM »
He may not be acting against the game rules, but his actions, in my opinion, is not in a "good faith" (as we say here in brazil).

If you have a 120/day and there are already 1 or 2  airlines flying the route.. Come on, the demand is very low, and you still want to add 120 or 149 more seats?

Acting like that he may damage the other players.

I don't think acting like that is honest.

He should look to another routes, wich you can have a good competition.. Like in the Vienna - Paris - Charles de Gaule route.. I don't complain about this route.. And also the London heatrow route.. I don't complain about this route too..

Again, I don't think acting like that is honest.

I may be wrong.. the user may not have had a bad inttention.. But, what i see right now is that the user didn't have a good intention at all, saturating those routes.


Offline Sigma

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 11:43:52 PM »
Quote
Acting like that he may damage the other players.

One certainly hopes so!

That's the entire point!

Who cares if there's some other routes he can serve, maybe he really wants to serve that route.  Just because you were there first, doesn't mean a thing.  If you've got a problem with it and you feel there are other routes that can be served then you move to those routes.  If you don't want to do that, then what you have is a little thing called "competition", where you all fight to see who can get those 150/day and the best player wins.  As long as he's doing it fairly (not dumping or flooding) then there's not one bit of problem.  And as long as you operate the better-run airline, he's not going to get very far.

Offline Daveos

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 11:48:54 PM »
I would share with Sigma's thoughts here.

He's merely acting in the what he thinks is the best long-term interests for his airline and by filling the capacity on those routes, he is hoping to stop your expansion. 

Being one step ahead of your competitor is what the game is all about, however you want to acheive that.  You should use your in depth analysis of his route structure to your benefit and open up on the routes he's not using.

Offline herts15

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 12:13:12 AM »
Well said Sigma and Daveos.

I think that in the real world every airline can fly whatever plane it deems necessary to its airports..so why should it be different here?

The aim of the game is to be the best, beat all your competitors on the same routes, so why should there be rules stating otherwise?

If your airline provides a better service, with the best punctuality and best prices...then passengers will choose you over them surely?

If not, then you need to buck your ideas up!

zorbon

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 03:00:21 AM »
If it makes you feel any better i've started flying against him on some of his routes.

Offline Beni

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 10:52:30 AM »
There is something called free market. It is a freedom question. If someone want to put his plane and his money in a saturated route, it is his problem becouse I suppose you have better route image and you can move your prices too.

We are here to have fun and to compete. You can have fun flying from a remote airport in Russia and managing small 19 seaters. It can be funny. But when you choose fly from one of the most important airports in this game, you should be ready to compete. There are some rules in the game that everybody must respect, but respecting the rules everything can be done.

You said your competitor doesnt act in "good faith" (we use the same expresion here in spain) and maybe you are right. Your competitor want to ruin your company and take all your routes. Of course... this is the goal of any company everywhere. Dont you want to win?



« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 11:40:59 AM by euskoair »

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 03:46:39 PM »
Honestly, with all of Viennair's commonality issues and a large amount of routes (driving marketing costs skyhigh), he's probably pretty fragile right now. I would be surprised if he survives the first few years given the competition at Vienna and his high costs. By the way, Vienna is crazy... I'm flying Perseus Airlines out of Vienna. I'll warn all of you in advance that I plan providing around 100% of demand on Vienna-Frankfurt and Vienna-Amsterdam. I'll be doing so with high company image and good frequency. In any case, there's going to be a bloodbath on those larger routes, and I hope that it's not me bankrupting. Anyway, don't worry about sharing routes with Viennair for the time being, he is probably overexpanded.

Viennair

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 05:09:30 PM »
Hi all,

just by chance I've seen there is this complaint here about me and my actions.

This is my second world I am playing, the first I am playing from the beginning and I am very interested in playing in a good spirit as I really enjoy playing this simulation. I do not intend to kick anyone out of the market by unfair means, BUT I do intend to service many routes, obviously as many as possible with my planes. Howere, as it was pointed out, I do not exceed daily demand on ANY route. This is not my intention and I do not intend to do so in future.

Thanks also for the comment on potential problems. I think this might be an issue for me, so you see there s not only good in expanding fast. However, as I said before, this is my second world, and I am really looking forward to handle the challenges ahead of me, maybe learning something for future games.

To the original post, I never heard a complaint from you to me directly. And I do not visit the forum too often, something I might consider changing. However, I believe, it would be also fair to share your thoughts and complaints, potential misunderstandings with me first, before going public.

To all, have a nice day, thanks for the feedback/support/critizism and continue having fun playing, no matter if you're located in Vienna or somewhere else.

Cu, Viennair

Offline TK1244

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 06:56:32 PM »
Hi all,

just by chance I've seen there is this complaint here about me and my actions.

This is my second world I am playing, the first I am playing from the beginning and I am very interested in playing in a good spirit as I really enjoy playing this simulation. I do not intend to kick anyone out of the market by unfair means, BUT I do intend to service many routes, obviously as many as possible with my planes. Howere, as it was pointed out, I do not exceed daily demand on ANY route. This is not my intention and I do not intend to do so in future.

Thanks also for the comment on potential problems. I think this might be an issue for me, so you see there s not only good in expanding fast. However, as I said before, this is my second world, and I am really looking forward to handle the challenges ahead of me, maybe learning something for future games.

To the original post, I never heard a complaint from you to me directly. And I do not visit the forum too often, something I might consider changing. However, I believe, it would be also fair to share your thoughts and complaints, potential misunderstandings with me first, before going public.

To all, have a nice day, thanks for the feedback/support/critizism and continue having fun playing, no matter if you're located in Vienna or somewhere else.

Cu, Viennair
That's the spirit! :D
TK Regional

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 07:12:28 PM »
Sorry, I dont agree with the OP at all on this one.

This is NOT Hello Kitty Airline Island here.  Every kiddo doesn't go home with a Participant ribbon if they fail to place. 

THIS IS BUSINESS!   Look at what is going on at Sydney between me and another airline.  We both have 100% of demand to every city possible in the nation.  This will all come down to who has the most grit.

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 07:15:39 PM »
Hello Kitty Airline Island

Please, Sami, make this game world happen.

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 08:38:16 PM »
Please, Sami, make this game world happen.

 :)

By the way Viennair, don't worry, hardly anybody would take issue with the way you're playing the game. As Sami said, you're allowed to supply up to 200% of demand, and you're not even supplying half of that figure. But please don't address the fleet commonality issue... if you do, it will be much harder for us to bankrupt you. And as much as I may like you as a player and a person, your airline is the biggest that's based in Vienna (I believe) and mine is the smallest (for now), so I really have to try to undermine you, no?  ;D

Good luck though. I think these initial skirmishes are the most fun part of the game, so I'm enjoying it win or lose.

Yours,
Auerbacs (Perseus Airlines)

Viennair

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 09:29:04 PM »
Thanks for your comments and info!  :) I'm really excited about how this scenario is going to further develop.

@ auerbacs: I absolutely agree with you. Good luck to you too. Looking forward to see your airline develop, hopefully driving me to more efficiency.......(and not into bankruptcy).  ;)

Greetings,

Viennair

munipandita

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 10:06:16 PM »
Hi people.
Sometimes we must admit our errors.

Well i don't think i am wrong at all.. But when everyone is saying so, then there is something wrong.

Viennar said i didn't wrote directly to him, and posted a public topic. I am sorry for that (as i said in the message i just wrote to him).

One certainly hopes so!

That's the entire point!

Who cares if there's some other routes he can serve, maybe he really wants to serve that route.  Just because you were there first, doesn't mean a thing.  If you've got a problem with it and you feel there are other routes that can be served then you move to those routes.  If you don't want to do that, then what you have is a little thing called "competition", where you all fight to see who can get those 150/day and the best player wins.  As long as he's doing it fairly (not dumping or flooding) then there's not one bit of problem.  And as long as you operate the better-run airline, he's not going to get very far.

Sigma, when i am planning a route and i see that Viennair is flying the route, i don't open that route when the demand is too low.
I came here to complain because he opened routes (low demand routes) that i was already flying.

I believe in rational competition. If we are based at the same airport, we should focus on fighting the other players, that are not based at this airport, because acting like animal competition we won't grow.. We will "die fighting each other"...

And, people, please don't take it to the personal side.. I probably didn't expose my ideas as they really are. If i have offended anyone (mostly Viennair), i am sorry.

There is something called free market. It is a freedom question. If someone want to put his plane and his money in a saturated route, it is his problem becouse I suppose you have better route image and you can move your prices too.

We are here to have fun and to compete. You can have fun flying from a remote airport in Russia and managing small 19 seaters. It can be funny. But when you choose fly from one of the most important airports in this game, you should be ready to compete. There are some rules in the game that everybody must respect, but respecting the rules everything can be done.

You said your competitor doesnt act in "good faith" (we use the same expresion here in spain) and maybe you are right. Your competitor want to ruin your company and take all your routes. Of course... this is the goal of any company everywhere. Dont you want to win?

Well the goal is to win the game, that is right. But as i said before, when we are based at the same airport, we should have some rationality when competing each other. I am not talking about "oh you don't fly my routes and i don't fly yours".. it's about having a rationality when you open a route, a little 'respect' because we are 'in the same boat'.. So if the boat shrink, we all die.. Wich is different about the competition with airlines based outside...

This is my personal opinion, about 'growing together'.. This is how i was educated for.. Remembering, my personal opinion, and i respect each others' opinion too.. I am just asking for more rationality.

Well said Sigma and Daveos.

I think that in the real world every airline can fly whatever plane it deems necessary to its airports..so why should it be different here?

The aim of the game is to be the best, beat all your competitors on the same routes, so why should there be rules stating otherwise?

If your airline provides a better service, with the best punctuality and best prices...then passengers will choose you over them surely?

If not, then you need to buck your ideas up!

I don't think thigs are that 'animal'.. At least here in brazil we have some regulamentation. The government must authorize the opening of new routes. Of course there is competition, heavy competition, but we must be rational!

Offline Sigma

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2010, 10:20:52 PM »

Sigma, when i am planning a route and i see that Viennair is flying the route, i don't open that route when the demand is too low.
I came here to complain because he opened routes (low demand routes) that i was already flying.

I believe in rational competition. If we are based at the same airport, we should focus on fighting the other players, that are not based at this airport, because acting like animal competition we won't grow.. We will "die fighting each other"...

In business what you describe is often called the "Race to the Bottom".  You both keep cutting costs until, eventually, neither of you is making any money.  It is a concern when conducting business like Viennair  That's why you should decide whether you want to participate in that "race" (if you think you are more efficient and can win) or whether you want to pull out and take your planes elsewhere.  There is no "right" answer there.  It simply depends on the business model you want to use as well as whatever your competitor is willing to tolerate from you.  Perhaps you can reach a mutual agreement with regards to routes, but you cannot assume that your competitor is going to be thinking the same thing as you are in regards the competition.

It's certainly your prerogative to conduct your business in such a way to avoid local competition, but it seems a little backwards to me.  Players flying into your base are only a fraction of the competition.  They are, usually, only the competition on that singular route.  However, if you can take out a competitor that's based on your home base, you remove them from likely dozens of your routes at once and freeing up hundreds, if not thousands, of highly valuable slots that you can later use.  If nothing else, simply slowing down their growth ensures that there are more of those other empty routes that you speak of to use.  It just makes a lot more sense to focus on the local competition rather than the "foreign" competition.

Speaking from experience I can tell you that the absolute best strategy is a combination of both -- putting planes on competitors routes as well as seeking out empty ones.  If all you do is seek out empty routes, always being the pushover to your competitor, they're going to get the best routes and, eventually, force you out of your own base.  If all you do is throw planes at your competition, you'll get yourself entwined in a race to the bottom, and one your competition will likely have the upper-hand on if they realize what you're doing.  They key is a balance of both -- establish routes that are your own that you can be really profitable on while also keeping the pressure on your competition to ensure that their growth doesn't go unchecked.  Part of the competitive aspect of the game is also realizing what your competitors are doing as well -- if they're trying to establish good routes on their own to subsidize their routes they're in competition with you over, you need to realize that and go after those routes. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 10:23:31 PM by Sigma »

munipandita

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2010, 10:46:44 PM »
mm.. interesting

Aahz the Pervect

  • Former member
Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 11:38:06 PM »
*off topic*

At least here in brazil we have some regulamentation.

I could not stop chuckling. This is in no way a barb at Catita Bill. I've seen far too many of my fellow Americans mangle the English language to even consider hassling a non-native speaker about it.

But regulamentation is just waaaaay too funny. If on purpose, I bow to CB's skill at wordplay and humor.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 11:41:03 PM by Aahz the Pervect »

Offline [ATA] - lilius

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Re: Viennair: not playing a fair game
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 12:55:07 AM »
Stop complaining if your competitors wants to burn cash for empty seats, the problem is theirs more than yours. Remember that the game is long and good luck!

 :)

 

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