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Author Topic: Great idea for slots  (Read 5546 times)

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Great idea for slots
« on: February 21, 2010, 02:59:45 AM »


 ;D

This is actually truely happening at LHR, and we need it at more conjested airports....what do you guys think, i post an excert below-

In fact, under such a system, efficient and profitable airlines such as British Airways could expand their operations at Heathrow, by bidding for slots currently held by inefficient operators, without any negative environmental consequences. HACAN proposes that an environmental limit is set on available slots at Heathrow of 450,000 a year, the maximum capacity under current operating procedures, which will be reached by the year 2000.


Offline swiftus27

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 03:51:15 AM »
This would require Sami to revamp the game and is compeltely unfriendly to new competition.  Essentially, with your plan, if you are the first major player or two in LHR, you win. 

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 04:03:49 AM »
This would require Sami to revamp the game and is compeltely unfriendly to new competition.  Essentially, with your plan, if you are the first major player or two in LHR, you win. 

pretty much how it works now, first person to get their hands on a good airport and good planes wins.......

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 04:22:17 AM »
Agreed...depending on how you run your airline...

With that proposal, atleast virtually bankrupt airlines(such as Atlantic express-millions in debt) can be chased out and those with low low LF's continually.

Swiftus, I am not sure if you are playing the game or running the forum only, but sometimes you need to keep your comments to yourself, not sure if you are trying to get free credits with Sami, but your trying hard....!!!!

Swiftus, yes it may require a game change, but since all the current and past complaints, we are trying to find a solution to the incumbent problem, so participate and suggest options or just back out....

JM

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 04:34:01 AM »
Agreed...depending on how you run your airline...

With that proposal, atleast virtually bankrupt airlines(such as Atlantic express-millions in debt) can be chased out and those with low low LF's continually.

Swiftus, I am not sure if you are playing the game or running the forum only, but sometimes you need to keep your comments to yourself, not sure if you are trying to get free credits with Sami, but your trying hard....!!!!

Swiftus, yes it may require a game change, but since all the current and past complaints, we are trying to find a solution to the incumbent problem, so participate and suggest options or just back out....

JM

I am so sorry if I agree with Sami here and that it upsets you.   No, I am not trying to get free creds; I have plenty.   You joined 2 months ago.  You haven't seen all the changes made in just the past year.    Sami has made some major achievements with this engine.  Just ask about plane ordering before the current system.  If you want to talk about unfair, it was nuts because you'd get the next XXXXX in a row and NOT get them staggered out.   And then, there was the complete lack of commonality penalty.  Airlines (ahem Magic Carpet) found out early that it could lease EVERYTHING on the market and take up EVERY slot (ahem Narita) and be a multi billionaire within 2 years.  You'd be ordering your first 747-400 and he'd have 17 on order already.  

Play through a complete game.  You will see that the biggest in London often fail miserably.  They get so big that their costs of survival just bury them in the end.  As someone said above.  The low cost carrier can lowball the price and steal market share without showing up on the big airline's radar (sorry for the pun).

Concerning Slots, Sami has just started experimenting with the increased costs of slots as one airline gets more and more.  That came out in the past few months.  It hasn't been completely tested yet and probably could use some adjustment.    

The last problem with LHR is not the airlines that are IN it.  It is the fact that everyone else wants to fly TO IT as well.  It's the Atlanta, the Narita....   Just look at LHR's market share pie chart.  Almost 1/3rd of the total share is taken up by airlines that have less than 2% market share individually.  That means that there are so many others coming in.

Lastly, it is a simulation.   Not a game.  Sami is doing his best to balance both aspects.  But, there's some things he isn't willing to bend on.  This is why I have been trying to ask him about a parallel world scenario where events could take place altering people's travel habits, the price of oil, TIMES AIRPORTS ARE OPEN, Make the MD-12 as A380 competitor?, as well as others.  I just don't know what variables could be changed without too much work being necessary.

EDIT:  Okay, how is Atlantic Express even surviving with 17 fleet groups?  That is just insane.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 04:42:00 AM by swiftus27 »

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2010, 05:11:35 AM »
Dear swiftus

Alas, I agree with everything you have said....commen ground atlast.......

Yes sami has done a great job here, and it is a simulation and not a game, thats why I would like to see some changes more to reality, if you are with me...I dont want just a "game" scenario!!

Swiftus, thets take LHR for example, the biggest international airport in the world, well in this scenario, its the biggest regional domestic airport in the world, because slots are given freely!!
LHR has proposed 53% International traffic, 37% regional "Europe" and 10% domestic....OK so the slots need to be ratioed as such....

With 28 slots per hour, we need 14 intl, 10 europe, and 4 domestic, right?

So I propose further, the those slots be further broken down into International Foreign carriers/ International Home base  eg out of the 14 international slots allocated per hour, 7 goto homebase and 7 goto foreign carriers....

I think this could work if we had 8 slots screens, 2 for INTL(foreign and home carriers) 2 for Europe(foreign and Home) 2 for dom(foreign and home based)  However, I think domestic should be one screen and for homebase, country base airlines only, as there is no "Open Skies" agreement in those day, so other airlines cannot fly extra legs within you country...thats fair....

I know this may be work for Sami, but I see far more fairness in this, that way, Atlantic Express could not grab all the slots with every aircraft under the sun and fly only EGLL to Blackpool and back 60 times a day with a Dove!!!!

I think all majors can operate like this, and fairness would prevail, as you would have a fair shot at a slot even though the biggest airline exists at that airport, there would be protected slots for foreign flights.

On Atlantic Express, Sami needs the bank to step in there!!!

Thanx for ur insightful input Swiftus, appreciated

JM

« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 05:13:44 AM by jumbo Mouse »

Offline Sigma

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2010, 05:46:11 AM »
Just because something is a "simulation" does not mean that results will mirror reality.  That's not the point.  If everything mirrored reality we'd all know how everything would end and it'd make the game quite uninteresting.  There'd be no "game" (and it is still just a game) at all -- we'd just be recreating reality -- whip out a copy of some airlines' schedule of flights and be done with it.   In fact, one of the biggest problems with AWS today, and one that sami's working to fix, is that it still mirrors reality too closely with ultimately the same routes existing in-game that exist in reality because, it's impossible (as of yet) to, say, make Indianapolis a major hub of domestic US travel.  That will change though it's a long time coming.

Just because LHR, in reality, has a slot breakdown of X/Y/Z absolutely does not mean that we need to have that same slot breakdown in AWS.  There's countless reasons why that breakdown exists in reality (mostly political, but also the results of business decisions made by countless airlines over the course of decades), and we, essentially, have a completely new and different reality in our world.  If some airline wants to move into LHR and turn it into a primarily Domestic Airport, that's their business.  We don't need to start telling people how they're "supposed" to be playing the game or running their airline.  Nor do we need to make it possible for one airline to steal their slots away because they're being "inefficient" in their use.  That's politics not business.  And while it is certainly difficult to separate the two in the real-life airline industry, that's what sami has to do except perhaps in cases where it makes sense by adding measurable value to the majority of the playerbase (i.e. how he acts as a regulatory body of sorts in regards to unfair business practice complaints).

One day, when the above mentioned demand model is changed, it won't particularly matter if someone "hogs" all the LHR slots for domestic travel.  Because passenger demand won't be tied to particular airports, but rather geographic areas of varying size.  So passengers will want to go from New York to London and if they have to fly through Gatwick instead of Heathrow because that's what's available, they'll do that.  Likewise you'll be able to woo them to a slightly-less-desireable, but still nearby, airport in much the same way that you can do that with particular flights in AWS today -- by offering better pricing, better equipment, better service.  But that is, by all accounts, still quite some time off.

Quote
I know this may be work for Sami, but I see far more fairness in this, that way, Atlantic Express could not grab all the slots with every aircraft under the sun and fly only EGLL to Blackpool and back 60 times a day with a Dove!!!!

If that is what's happening, someone just needs to make a formal complaint to sami.  Sami's closed down airlines in other worlds for similar abuses of the system.  You are not allowed to hog slots by flying little puddle jumpers 100 times a day to the same airport, flying almost completely empty, with the sole purpose of eating up slots.  However, it is perfectly acceptable to fly a little plane to 100 different destinations if you want and grab slots that way.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 05:50:16 AM by Sigma »

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2010, 07:01:39 AM »
Ref ABOVE

Okay okay, where do you draw the line.............  Fellow players complain the speeds and flight times are wrong for certain aircraft types, in other words they want reality and not just game simulation...right!!!

So where do you draw the line and set the presidence.....if we can fix it to mirror the better and more realistic it would be, why make LHR domestic, thats pathetic, why even call it Heathrow???  You want to use real aircraft going to real airports with real flight times and speeds, and then the buck stops there....how juvenile!!!!! 

Why even name anything after the real world, why not introduce 1000 seater aircraft for $10, because its not reality and no one will play.....
So fixes that dont concern or worry you, you should avoid comment on!!

JM

Dookz

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2010, 08:14:18 AM »
Atlantic Express has 16 different fleet groups with 3 more new fleet groups on its way. I wonder how long he can keep this up.

Anyway, I'm skimming over some of his routes, and it appears he is only flying them to as close to the demand as he can get, not 60 times over as Jumbo is is claiming in EGLL-Blackpool.




Offline Daveos

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 10:29:14 AM »
Jumbo Mouse - have a look at this thread: http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3260.0.html

The thread, as discussed above, shows how the demand may be created in the future for airports and may alleviate the flood into LHR, thus preserving more slots.  I'd imagine LHRs circle of influence would be greater and further reaching when this is introduced, but as Sigma says (you should listen/read Sigma's posts, he's full of good, useful and educated information), it would produce an alternate reality of what could have been.  This is surely what the simulation is about, creating an airline and being able to mould travel patterns how you would like them.  I can't wait for the day I can try and make Manchester a competitor to Heathrow in the UK, as one-third of the UKs population live within 2 hours travel of the airport.

The simulation does naturally filter out domestic/short haul flights in the UK eventually, as they produce less profit.  In HKG at the moment, for example, the only way I can expand is to increase aircraft size and reduce frequencies on shorter services, thus releasing the slots for longer more profitable services.  The short-haul services remain, but they will reduce as a percentage over time. With the simulation being in the 1960s, domestic services will have had more prominence and the simulation reflects this.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 11:41:13 AM by Daveos »

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 10:42:45 AM »
Ref ABOVE

Okay okay, where do you draw the line.............  Fellow players complain the speeds and flight times are wrong for certain aircraft types, in other words they want reality and not just game simulation...right!!!

So where do you draw the line and set the presidence.....if we can fix it to mirror the better and more realistic it would be, why make LHR domestic, thats pathetic, why even call it Heathrow???  You want to use real aircraft going to real airports with real flight times and speeds, and then the buck stops there....how juvenile!!!!! 

Why even name anything after the real world, why not introduce 1000 seater aircraft for $10, because its not reality and no one will play.....
So fixes that dont concern or worry you, you should avoid comment on!!

JM

So where would YOU draw the line? Now we have all these weird airlines that nobody has ever heard of run by some hacks, with a couple of 747 pilots thrown in. Should we make it so that when you start the game you would be allocated a real-life airline you would have to mimic? That would be very realistic, but would it be fun?

I think the whole point of the game/simulation is to see could you make a better airline than real airline executives. Certain cities have become mega-hubs in reality and therefore also have huge demand in the game. City-based demand would change that and you could actually decide to build your mega-hub on a completely different airport. That would make this game so cool my butt would freeze through the sofa. The game would still be a simulation because you would have to run your neo-hub according to the same economic principles and technical circumstances as in real life, not because the game was an exact replica of real life airline system.

Offline Sami

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 12:50:26 PM »
Swiftus, thets take LHR for example, the biggest international airport in the world, well in this scenario, its the biggest regional domestic airport in the world, because slots are given freely!!
LHR has proposed 53% International traffic, 37% regional "Europe" and 10% domestic....OK so the slots need to be ratioed as such....

That distribution of passenger traffic is not related to slots or their distribution in any way unfortunately. The %'s shown relate to the estimated passenger demands are not relative to slots or their distribution. In reality, to my understanding, an airline can use his airport slot in any route he wishes and it is not dictated by the airport operating agency that he would have to use in on domestic routes only for example. (if there are indeed such locations or rules, please link a source for example, as I've never read of such)

Like discussed in the other thread (but no reply..), we cannot start making made-up regulations (unless they'd have some real benefit) just to make some player happy.



Atlantic Express could not grab all the slots with every aircraft under the sun and fly only EGLL to Blackpool and back 60 times a day with a Dove!!!!

Swiftus, I am not sure if you are playing the game or running the forum only, but sometimes you need to keep your comments to yourself, not sure if you are trying to get free credits with Sami, but your trying hard....!!!!

Like already pointed out in the other thread (here and here), STOP posting insults about other members, and also such comments about other players(airlines) that are completely untrue. It seems that you have a strange need to smear this airline and/or its player. That airline does not even have a single Dove aircraft.

You MUST calm down and try to write in a proper/friendly manner towards other members. And unfortunately this is the final warning on this...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 01:29:10 PM by sami »

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2010, 05:49:44 PM »
Dear Sami

The "Dove" piece was written figuratively, and not literally, anyway no matter....and I am not even sure whether one can fly to Blackpool, I was just attempting to get a point across.

Anyway, I see that any post that goes against the grain of the simulation seems to get shot down, so I have decided to refrain from any further suggestion or querry posts in future.

Sorry if I have offended anyone, I am sure Richard Branson never offended BA (BA/AA No way)  

thank you for the simulation.... I will play quietly  in the background.

Jm

Offline Sami

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2010, 08:01:45 PM »
You are asking things that are unrealistic (like noise ban in year 1960) or otherwise inaccurate, and get offended of declining those? You must understand that there is a certain plan / 'big picture' that will be followed in the process of building AWS better and all and every possible user requests will not be carried out.

If you have any additional requests please post them to the correct sub forum (feature requests).

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 08:26:04 PM »
Quote from: jumbo Mouse
efficient and profitable airlines such as British Airways....

What on earth..... Get your figures right. BA is one of the most loss-making operations in the world.

2008 results
British Airways makes worst ever loss
Pre-tax loss of 401m almost double what many predicted
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/may/22/british-airways-record-loss

2009 results first three quatres:
British Airways said on Friday that it had made a narrowed pre-tax loss of 50m in the last three months of 2009, taking total losses for the first three quarters of its 2009-10 financial year to 342m.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/02/05/british.airways.results.ft/index.html

I think it won't take long before BA will be BK  ;D

L1011fan

  • Former member
Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 11:07:34 PM »
No this is not a good idea and LHR is not the "end all, be all" for airports. It's pretty poorly run just when they need efficiency and they drop the ball alot of the time. So LHR is no glowing model here. AMS is a far superior European example for one. But back to the question, this is neither fare, its uncompetitive, and renders the game "no fun".  Leave well enough alone and let carriers come and go as they like. Sounds like a case of "anti-competitiveness", and possibly anti-trust issues in some parts of the world. Leave it alone.  And P.S., if JAL can file for bankruptcy in the real world, what makes BA think they can avoid it again, and this time maybe not come back? I've always thought of JAL as much more stable than BA and alot of US carriers. Now look. BA may equal AZ. :-\

Offline carrisi

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Re: Great idea for slots
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 03:44:26 AM »

Wow. I just came across this thread. I never knew I was so interesting!   :o

 

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