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Online Airline Management Simulation
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Author Topic: Airline size and complexity un-realism  (Read 3546 times)

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Airline size and complexity un-realism
« on: February 20, 2010, 12:03:07 PM »

Sami,

Something needs to be done regarding how fast airlines can grow at the start.

The Jet age is less than 18 months old, yet some airlines are operating 50+ aircraft.

18 months into the game some airlines are 10 aircraft types (not considering sub types).   This is not realistic, but done to grab slots, and dominate regions in an unrealistic way.

In reality - NAME one airline operating 50 aircraft within 18 months of start up.   Name one 50 fleet airline operating 10 aircraft types.

Not realistic.  :(



Offline Sami

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 12:10:34 PM »
Name a place in real world where an airline can enter a completely empty market and just waiting for to get 100 planes to fill up the demand. Nowhere, yes. That is the reason behind this basically..

As there is no competition when world starts the growth is much easier and faster. That is an issue, true, and already discussed at feature rq. forum a long time ago. But any suggestions on how to handle this elegantly?

jchaves

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 12:57:05 PM »
Name a place in real world where an airline can enter a completely empty market and just waiting for to get 100 planes to fill up the demand. Nowhere, yes. That is the reason behind this basically..

As there is no competition when world starts the growth is much easier and faster. That is an issue, true, and already discussed at feature rq. forum a long time ago. But any suggestions on how to handle this elegantly?

I've been playing a lot of economy simulators, for many years. The only logic option is to model a shadow undifferentiated AI offer, with a set of medium attributes -let's say CI 50, RI 50, default prices - that is present along all the simulation and it's the barrier against the starting companies have to fight to start operations and get some growth.

Please don't focus too much on the setting values suggestion, of course there are some optimal settings, after testing.

Those values can be different in each game world, and that would be also useful to define the difficulty level in each scenario.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 01:02:50 PM by jchaves »

Offline Unbornio

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 02:43:03 PM »
Don't allow loans at the start?  :P That will slow down the pace by a lot.
Beta Tester

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 02:53:14 PM »
 ;D

Allow a certain amount of slot allocations in the first year, and gradually increasing as it goes along, if your based at an airport -get a tripple slot quota, but outside airlines get a single or even better -half quota, per annum.

An airline cannot hog most of the slots, as in this game, it must be reasonable distributed, maybe sell the slots seperatly, as opposed to selling them with the flight creation!!!

Also, I agree with the crazy out of control growth, maybe max 5 aircraft in first year, with max 20 in 3 years and so on!!!! -  this may require longer games- but so be it.

I personally think, most of the posts I read here, they want more reality, they dont want to hear this is a game, this is there own creation and their baby, so maybe rectify some things....

JM
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 02:55:34 PM by jumbo Mouse »

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 03:02:48 PM »
So, if you ordered planes and your allocation for the year is full, you have no option but to sit on those planes.  SUPER!  Sounds like something that people would complain more about if implemented.

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 03:11:49 PM »
Swiftus,

Very smart guy you are...........!!!  go plow snow

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 03:22:15 PM »
Finally above freezing here.  The snow is melting. 

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 03:30:49 PM »
Good

Maybe ur aircraft will skid off the runway and force your closure, props dont do well in cold weather...LOL

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 03:56:44 PM »
They do just fine in cold weather.  I see Dash 8s all over my home town.

jumbo Mouse

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 04:08:55 PM »
Yes

In the airline industry, they call it a "Dash Late"


Offline Sami

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 04:23:59 PM »
Swiftus,

Very smart guy you are...........!!!  go plow snow


Note from administrator / forum moderator:  Please refrain from posting such remarks and insults against other members in the future.


(if that was meant to be a joke, then I didn't get it)


Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 05:51:23 PM »
Name a place in real world where an airline can enter a completely empty market and just waiting for to get 100 planes to fill up the demand. Nowhere, yes. That is the reason behind this basically..

As there is no competition when world starts the growth is much easier and faster. That is an issue, true, and already discussed at feature rq. forum a long time ago. But any suggestions on how to handle this elegantly?

Maybe start the games on weekends instead of during the working week would help  :-\  I cant think of one game that has opened at say 20:00 GMT on a Friday night or even 12:00 on a Saturday - I know for the 'adults' who do this game almost all of them will be working during the week when the games start and even with the 24hour start your disadvanteged as alot of the decent aircraft have gone by the time you get in from work at say 6pm

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 10:47:57 PM »

Thanks Sami for fixing the second part of the problem - small airlines with 10 types of aircraft.  Fixing this will really slow down ability to grow so fast as multi fleet costs will rise.

Thanks again.

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 11:08:27 PM »
any suggestions on how to handle this elegantly?

In my opinion, one way to manage this is to limit the complexity of fleet.

0-50 aircraft - 3 aircraft types allowed (boeing 737 6-7-8-9 is one aircraft type)
50-100 aircraft 4 aircraft types allowed

Or secondly - limit to amount of new aircraft orders in first 36 months to a maximum of four orders a year (an order can be for as many aircraft in that type)

Start up airlines usually dont operate a mixed fleet, nor do they place multiple orders in the first two or three years.

Changes like this will force airline managers to really assess the market they plan to attack, and stop the candy store "one of those, three of those, and two of these please - oh, and that one over there" management style that is around today.

Offline schro

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 11:13:46 PM »
In my opinion, one way to manage this is to limit the complexity of fleet.

0-50 aircraft - 3 aircraft types allowed (boeing 737 6-7-8-9 is one aircraft type)
50-100 aircraft 4 aircraft types allowed

Or secondly - limit to amount of new aircraft orders in first 36 months to a maximum of four orders a year (an order can be for as many aircraft in that type)

Start up airlines usually dont operate a mixed fleet, nor do they place multiple orders in the first two or three years.

Changes like this will force airline managers to really assess the market they plan to attack, and stop the candy store "one of those, three of those, and two of these please - oh, and that one over there" management style that is around today.

The scaling costs of fleet commonality already do this.  If you dont' read the manual, you'll learn this the hard way pretty quickly.  For example, when I had 15 Tridents, 10 DC7's and a single Vanguard, that Vanguard basically cost me in overhead what it made each month - even though it was my most profitable plane, the overhead killed it.

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2010, 08:25:35 AM »

I have read the manual - its others that havent.  I can also apply common sense.   An airline with one of these, and three of those is going to have huge schedule intregrity issues also - due maintenance issues.

zorbon

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 02:48:30 AM »
zombie airlines before we start. they degrade over time unless someone applies to take their leadership.

gorillaunit

  • Former member
Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2010, 08:49:26 AM »
Having 50 planes in 18 months is close to non-sense in reality. Those guys who practice this way of business are a bunch of people who want to ruin the beauty of this game, which still need to be improved. Are they still survive in the game ? With a negative balance sheet ? I guess we need more tough regulator in this game. This regulator should regularly take some time to look into each company balance sheet and list of airplane and it's route. Any suggestion about this ? Is that because each player pay to play means can do anything they want ?

Offline Minto Typhoon

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Re: Airline size and complexity un-realism
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2010, 06:50:02 PM »


One carrier I'm watching now has 76 aircraft, with a further 96 on order.   So much for a small diversity of aircraft making a difference.  This type of airline would never exist in reality so quickly after foundation, and makes the Jetage impossible to enjoy.

The only example of an airline ordering so many aircraft from a zero start that I can recall (and I work in the industry) was Indigo, the Indian Low Cost company who ordered 100 A320's.   even they didnt split their 96 strong order into seven different aircraft types. 

 

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