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Author Topic: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.  (Read 6816 times)

jumbo Mouse

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Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« on: February 20, 2010, 09:50:28 AM »
Sami and players.

I have played many games and really enjoyed it, however, this game seems stumped in a way.  I am out of LHR, and was the first airline there, then came Dara, who is doing well.  

The slots are all gone right now and the game is totally unrealistic, there should be a game restriction to the amount of airliners at an airport, eg2 at a big airport, max 3!  More slots should be available to the home base airlines, and not on a free market, this is reality!

The game is basically over for me, i have cash yes, but what do I do now, just buy and replace aircraft and lease them out, how boring...

This game needs some attention and change....  "do you think British Airways stopped expanding in the 1960's, I dont think so....."

Further we should have a ban shortly on props in and out of LHR, the queen is getting p***ed.....stage 3 noise abatement please impose, free alot of slots....  If you wanna make LHR realistic with its opening times, make it realistic as to slots and noise restricted aircraft.....

JM >:(
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 09:54:38 AM by jumbo Mouse »

MunMaRu

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2010, 10:22:10 AM »
I think paid some money to building new passenger terminal to expanding the slot !  ;D



My airline has stop to grow now because of the LHR slot  >:(

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 11:56:58 AM »
Please tell me in what sense it is 'unrealistic' if some airport has for example five airlines? I agree that compared to those days and completely gov. regulated business it does not match. But how and on what purposes or ground it could be restricted to join here? Because some others were there first? That wouldn't be good at all.... The early gov. controlled airlines and basically monopolies will not be created as it would be meaningless.

The slots at major airports will ALWAYS run out, regardless of game world or game year. They run out or are used to the max in reality too.. I guess you have not been in LHR in other worlds? I think though that the slots were gone faster than usually this time.

So sorry for sounding a bit rude; just if you can't make it, or have some 'obstacles' on the way, there is no need to start 'yelling' like that.

Also there is no 'prop ban' at LHR (not sure what you mean with this?). And Stage 2 planes were not banned until 2000 or so in Europe. These will be included in next version, and plan is to allow also airport based extra regulations later on. But for this case in 1960 there are even NO stage 2 planes available as the whole noise regulation system has not even been invented yet(!)....
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:01:04 PM by sami »

Misterfeep

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 12:52:44 PM »
I think statements regarding "realism" are pointless.  This is a game.  It is not reality.  When you play a combat simulation, you don't die in real life if you are shot in the game.  Every game is unrealistic.  The challenge is making a game that is enjoyable and gives a feel for reality.  This always involves trade-offs.

jumbo Mouse

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 02:22:46 PM »
Dear Sami and friends


Thank you for ur reply, yes I have operated in and out of Heathrow, and actually in real life, as I am a 747-400 Captain for a major carrier, and in my prior life I was an air traffic controller, co-incidently involved in slot control at a major international airport.

I though "yelling" on the web was done in "caps Lock", however, I used lower case in my innitial address, so please could you explain the "yelling " part!!!!

Yes this maybe a game, as previously stated, but most people play it because it gives them a chance at virtual reality, which is what we strive for here!!!, if you want this to be a kids games please advertise as so, as far as I can see there are mainly adults here!

I am confused at your response -Sami, as I have played your "game" many times in the past, and actually quite enjoyed it -upto now!

I find your response disconcerting, I am not one of those people asking for a better website for another simulation game, I actually think this simulation is very good, I am just suggesting possible things to look into for future, if you can't handle my posts, just refund me and we will be done.

If you say you cannot make it realistic, let Heathrow open 24hours a day and also allow us to relocate after 3 months.

JM

As for the previous post, yes you die in games, but they are played over a short spell and you get to start again at no cost, this is a long term game with many virtual realities, and plus the time one puts in here, its not a regular game.

Will hope in future, you can look for some alternative slot allocation measures.

JM
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 02:44:10 PM by jumbo Mouse »

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 02:57:42 PM »
Sami, I will come to your defense.

Some others sound like they are whining because someone is ahead of you.  

Don't you know what times airports like LHR and SYD are open by now?  Haven't people complained that LHR gets full too quickly in almost every game?   WELCOME TO REAL LIFE.  There are airlines whose biggest asset is slots at LHR.  These airlines will fly empty planes just to keep the slot because they are appreciating in value faster than the fuel they are burning.  

Why should LHR be open 24h in game when it isnt in real life?  

The prop ban idea is a joke.  As long as the airline owner pays the same amount to take off and land, he should be allowed to fly.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 03:01:10 PM by swiftus27 »

jumbo Mouse

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 03:05:42 PM »
Swiftus27

Yes LHR is closed 23-06 because the takeoff path 09L/R is over the queens palace, also for approach 27L/27R.  However, my point is, that LHR has been complained about many times in the past because of slots, and thats the point, nothing was done about it!  Do you think LHR ran out of slots in 1966, so how did Virgin Atlantic, Emirates, Qatar and so on and so on get slots in the 80's, think before you talk man.....

We are asking for a game fix, I have no problem running my routes and making cash, I am actually on the first page of airlines, money wise, but as for expansion from 1966, it is non existant, and we ask this problem be reasonable addressed.....more to reality....

Swiftus, you may think the prob ban is a joke, maybe look up something on stage 1 and stage 2 noise abatement requirements in Europe, it will be a reality....ur a joke!
JM  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 03:09:19 PM by jumbo Mouse »

Misterfeep

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 03:59:46 PM »
I have a possible recommendation that would add "realism" and address some of the concerns about rapid expansion early in the game and slot limits.  Place severe penalties on negative cash balances.  As it is now, you can have a negative cash balance and still buy fuel, pay your staff, and (despite what the manual may say) keep you a/c maintained.  All while going further into the red.  This encourages risky behavior such as acquiring large numbers of a/c quickly early in the game.  It is also "unrealistic".  It assumes employees and fuel suppliers are carrying the debt load for the carrier by continuing to supply labor and fuel even though they are not being paid.  If you charge a high interest rate (which a bank would for a short-term unsecured loan to a start-up company with no real assets) for being in the red and then bankrupted the carrier quickly, early growth would be much slower.

I am at IAD in Jet Age and I am the dominant carrier.  There are two others.  One of them has had a negative value (and I am sure negative cash balance) for most of the game.  He is 5 million in the red on value with 6 leased jets.  He will bankrupt at some point but it seems to me he is already past the point where any reasonable supplier would be selling him fuel on credit!

Offline Daveos

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 04:16:44 PM »
Hopefully the issue will be resolved a bit in the next version then from what Sami said.  Slots do increase year on year to model progress in techology, such as reduced seperation and improved aircraft performance - http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,8446.0.html.  I guess maybe trying to grab some of these will help, but in v1.2 the removal of third leg routes will help this, as it'll stop non-based carriers setting up through bases.  (I appreciate that isn't much use for you now!)

I can see that ~56% of the slots are controlled by the airlines based there in the game, which is actually remarkably realistic.  At LHR now, BA hold 41%, bmi holds 11% and Virgin 3%.  

The slot situation is frustrating (I'm based in HKG with 1 runway) but we don't have government panels for anti-monopoly rulings and slots cannot be bought or sold, which maybe a solution one day.  This article here shows that bmi's slots were valued at 660million at the end of 2008.  I can imagine that this would be a near impossibility to model - think how difficult this is in real life.

This lack of slots at some major airports is a trade off in the game to stop airlines growing too quickly, but over time as airlines bankrupt and CEO's get bored, the slot situation will improve.  If slots were too easy to get straight away, then anyone at airports with less demand would not have a chance in catching the biggest airlines.  This trade off in some ways acts as regulation to prevent airlines becoming too big too quickly.

The introduction of noise regulations is a nice twist to the game, with maybe hushkits etc being available.

Dave :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 04:39:23 PM by Daveos »

jumbo Mouse

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2010, 04:37:56 PM »
Wow

Nice to hear someone with some sense and education on the issue...well done.

Basically we need to implement someway to stop the slot grab, Atlantic Express at LHR leased every piece of junk he could find to fill slots, operating upto 10 different types, that unreasonable, and we need a way to stop that behaviour!! - its totally unrealistic!!!

I propose slots be sold seperatly.....and restrictions per airline based off aircraft type and origin.   You cant have 50 DC3'S carring 10 people Grabbing all the slots...which could happen, and all they do is fly up the road and back......this would make the international airport domestic....  Maybe a certain amount of slots can be nominated international foreign, international home base, domestic and regional.....that way the ratio of flights would fit in the real category for that airport.


Just a thought
JM

Offline Sami

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 04:38:12 PM »
Thank you for ur reply, yes I have operated in and out of Heathrow, and actually in real life, as I am a 747-400 Captain for a major carrier

Sorry, but what about that? I flew myself last time to Heathrow a week ago. I really cannot see how does that relate to an airline simulation game that has a 1965 dated scenario?

For the "yelling", I was referring to the "angry" smilies, multiple exlamation marks (!) and the general tone of your message.

Also you say that the situation is not realistic but you still make strange suggestions like removing the real curfew hours and other such things. I really do not understand why? If you could explain a bit more what that would help, as it would be just two steps backwards. Just saying that "there is a prop ban" or "stage 2 noise limit" while both of those were highly inaccurate does not help in this case. Yes, TODAY at LHR the Stage2 planes ARE banned (whole EU, USA etc..) but it is 1965 in THIS scenario, and the aim is to follow the reality also there. We cannot impose made-up regulations for that date as that would ban every jet operating to LHR in that year as all are Stage1. ;D

I hope you get what I am after here...


For the slots what was the issue.. In reality in 1960 there was probably only BA flying from LHR as the dominant carrier, and I bet actually "slots" were not even invented back then as traffic was so low. But since we are dealing with more players here there is bound to be problems, and like mentioned many times this happens EVERY TIME at LHR - there is no smart way out of it in my mind. We could pose made-up regulations to stop this but it would just lead to double the whining that is going on today about LHR slots. As I guess it would lead to even worse "first come - first take" situation. Of course smart and proper ideas are always welcome.  :)

But overall one has to understand that the general scope of the world is different in a sim scenario as we still basically have an open market here globally and it's really hard (=boring?) to set goverment regulations in a way they existed in 1960s (= you are BA, you are only one to fly - extreme example a bit). That wouldn't work well here in long term.


One thing that does happen, to some extent, is that players at popular airports try to grab hold of every plane they can financially to get the slots as early as possible... Perhaps some sort of "slot convention" to allocate the yearly slots like in reality would be in order. For most popular airports only?  
(edit:  this is pretty much what JM just posted while I was writing this.)

If there is actual and provable slot hogging (seen it once) then us admins can stop that.



btw. does anyone have any info what the true hourly capacity of LHR (or similar airport) was in 1960 for example. This data is very hard to find and the system makes certain assumptions to calculate this at the moment. I could make it more accurate.



Edit: small edit, confused to the EarlyDay scenario..
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 04:59:17 PM by sami »

Online schro

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 05:00:25 PM »
Isn't the anti-monopoly charge on the slots supposed to drive the costs up to a point that a fairly new and not all that profitable airline will have difficulty asserting dominance over LHR? Same for fleet commonality - an airline with a 15 plane fleet of 10 different types should be getting hammered on maint and overhead costs and virtually strangling them.

Perhaps the answer isn't in a new process for slot reservation, but a change in how the costs are charged for maint and slot acquisition.  Factoring in the average fleet size for each plane type as part of the determination of cost for overhead should solve this rather quickly - if an airline operates 5 types with one plane each, this consideration would bury them in overhead, however, if an airline is adding a 5th plane type when the rest of their types average a fleet of 30 per type, the overhead should be allocated as is currently.

(of course, I'd argue that an airline with 5 fleet types with 50 planes each should have the same per type overhead as an airline with 2 fleet types and 50 planes each, but thats a suggestion for another day even though the above idea could make it easy to implement - it'd basically enforce the manual in saying that its best to run at least 30 of a type....)

Offline Daveos

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 05:22:45 PM »

btw. does anyone have any info what the true hourly capacity of LHR (or similar airport) was in 1960 for example. This data is very hard to find and the system makes certain assumptions to calculate this at the moment. I could make it more accurate.

After searching various articles, this is the best I can find for the moment - it seems to reference a 14 hour day until 1998, rather than the current 16 hours of opening.  The CAA restricts access to a large number of its articles, but there seems to be very little data from pre-1980s when the slots may not have been an issue

http://www.cric.ac.uk/cric/compprojects/project-1.htm

It also appears that LHR is not actually closed at night, but the noise restrictions are so tight that the number of departures is exceptionally low.  This page from BA has some noise categorisations, but I guess this would mean assigning every aircraft anoise rating in the game and I don't know how it would be possible to allocate certain slots to certain aircraft.

Offline TranceAvia

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 05:28:32 PM »
Maybe a certain amount of slots can be nominated international foreign, international home base, domestic and regional.....that way the ratio of flights would fit in the real category for that airport.


While I agree that competition is the name of the game here, and there would be no fair way to implement slot allocation. i do think this idea of yours is a good one...

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 05:44:25 PM »
AMS is the same virtually in the last 24 hours slots are almost non existant at certain times of the day and the rest well they are going fast.  Maybe the homebase airline could be allowed to 'buy' some of the slots prior to using them; it may help alleviate some of the problems at the major busy airports; for example I have 20 L/H aircraft on order so I need 140 slots to fly all of them daily - maybe for the homebase airlines only they can buy say a maximum of 200 slots per year but if they are not utilised within 12 months of purchase then the slots go back in for purchase by other airlines or the airline can pay more to extend the 'ownership' of those slots for another 6 months.  Another idea would be to allow you to allocate the slots to new aircraft that you have on order immediately ratehr than the current system of having to wait 3 weeks prior to the new aicrafts arrival - again maybe a fee could be paid for the 'early allocation' of the slot at your base.  Also maybe a possiblity is to limit dominance at the major airports ie no airline can take more than 45% of the slots at their home base however maybe this could be done when airlines are allowed to operate second hubs and if operating a second hub slots could be limited for the airline to say 3-10% of the total available at that second hub thus allowing the home base airlines still room to grow and expand. 

Offline Daveos

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 06:18:34 PM »
From further research, it seems that LHR was 'closed' to new airlines between 1977-1991.

'[Legislation was introduced at]Heathrow airport because of congestion and the slot allocation system so that no airline that had not been operating from Heathrow before 1977 would be granted access. This ban was lifted in 1991, but the allocation procedures continue to afford considerable advantage to incumbent airlines'

Source: http://www.esri.go.jp/jp/archive/bun/bun150/bun143a-e.pdf

It seems therefore that real life restrictions could solve the problems experienced at LHR with slots, but this is just one airport.  Surely this would be a nightmare to administer in the whole game.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 06:21:15 PM »
Arent 09LR and 27LR the same runway?  If Buckingham is in one direction and thus limits take offs and landings, why don't they just land from the other side?  I don't know enough about London weather to know if that is possible.

And yes, I know all about the sound rules in Europe and the USA.   I miss the 727.  couldnt quite hush kit those enough.

If you DONT like the situation in LHR/Gatwick, dont play there.  I have seen this complaint come up almost every game.  Simply put, you have SO much demand for that airport that it gives you a massive advantage.  Are you telling me that it is FAIR for every other airport/airline that the rules get to be bent for the players there?  HECK no.   If you haven't learned that all of the slots will be filled within the first year or two, you should have to deal with your shiny fleet being in hangars.   

Perhaps, when you start, you fly A-B-A routes only.  As it gets busier, send those same planes out on A-B-C-B-A routes while adding another plane to take out in the slot you just opened up. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 06:26:20 PM by swiftus27 »

Offline ukatlantic

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 06:23:49 PM »
Arent 09LR and 27LR the same runway?  If Buckingham is in one direction and thus limits take offs and landings, why don't they just land from the other side?  I don't know enough about London weather to know if that is possible.

And yes, I know all about the sound rules in Europe and the USA.   I miss the 727.  couldnt quite hush kit those enough.

Its 09L/27R & 09R/27L so yes each are the same runways  ;)

Offline Daveos

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Re: Unrealistic...slots and airlines...more regulation required.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 06:27:48 PM »
Arent 09LR and 27LR the same runway?  If Buckingham is in one direction and thus limits take offs and landings, why don't they just land from the other side?  I don't know enough about London weather to know if that is possible.

And yes, I know all about the sound rules in Europe and the USA.   I miss the 727.  couldnt quite hush kit those enough.

The 2 runways are only seperated by around 1km, so the flight path isn't far away on either.  They switch runway usage at 1500 daily anyway

EDIT:  Sorry, ambiguous on my behalf, I meant that 09R/27L and 09L/27R are seperated by around 1km  :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 06:35:30 PM by Daveos »

jchaves

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