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Author Topic: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market  (Read 2977 times)

Offline mark320

  • Members
  • Posts: 101
Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« on: February 09, 2010, 03:17:16 PM »
Dear all,

It with regret I have had to close down all routes to and from Amsterdam due to underhand tactics by Air Atlantis. I have tried an analysis and i can conclude with certainty that this airline has been selling seats way below costs on the MLA-AMS-MLA flights to just have me pull off the route.
This is a game after all and as such we are a community of people with the same interest but in the real world, dumping seats is considered illegal: vide German Authorities case against Emirates Airlines 2009.
I do not consider this ethical game playing and frankly I will cede the routes without further ado since this is a free market after all.

regards,


Mark320

CEO BluWings Airlines
Malta

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2010, 12:46:26 AM »
If you don't mind me asking, how have you come to this conclusion since you can't see his pricing?  ???  Heck, It's hard enough to determine where the profit/loss line is on your own routes since the crew costs and back office overhead aren't included anywhere on the route or aircraft profit numbers.  There are a number of reasons why you might fail to attract enough passengers besides price.  I can't say if any of them apply since obviously I can't see the details of your airline, and certainly can't see the details of routes you've closed.  I'm not saying you're not right, but there are certainly other possibilities.

Other possible causes/explanations in no particular order:

  • You're CI might be significantly lower than his
  • If you were operating the flight less frequently than him, pax seem to prefer the more frequent flying airline
  • Ditto for if you didn't fly each day of the week
  • If you're flights were at less preferred hours that would also give him an advantage
  • It's also possible he's been losing money without really dumping, if his load factors are reduced by your presence.  As big as he is, its even possible he didn't notice the loss (not that that makes it feel any better)

Offline mark320

  • Members
  • Posts: 101
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 10:03:06 AM »
If you don't mind me asking, how have you come to this conclusion since you can't see his pricing?  ???  Heck, It's hard enough to determine where the profit/loss line is on your own routes since the crew costs and back office overhead aren't included anywhere on the route or aircraft profit numbers.  There are a number of reasons why you might fail to attract enough passengers besides price.  I can't say if any of them apply since obviously I can't see the details of your airline, and certainly can't see the details of routes you've closed.  I'm not saying you're not right, but there are certainly other possibilities.

Other possible causes/explanations in no particular order:

  • You're CI might be significantly lower than his
  • If you were operating the flight less frequently than him, pax seem to prefer the more frequent flying airline
  • Ditto for if you didn't fly each day of the week
  • If you're flights were at less preferred hours that would also give him an advantage
  • It's also possible he's been losing money without really dumping, if his load factors are reduced by your presence.  As big as he is, its even possible he didn't notice the loss (not that that makes it feel any better)

Wel these are the answers for your very legitimate questions:

My CI is quite good and had a marketing specifically on the route
Frequency was better than his
Timings were various throughout the days including widebody better products on some days. You can easily check his cofig and seats.
I had ongoing traffic from AMS also and ticket prices were for some time less than $40 and I was not even filling 30% LF at times with the same A321 he was operating and with the same seats. Go figure. The outbound long haul flights were then normal pricing ranges showing discrepancies between the AMS-MLA-MLA and AMS-MEX-MLA for example. I also have many other routes and the pricing difference is mangable with comparative LF.
Yes he had an advantage of starting the game form the beginning and taking all routes from AMS. But there was no other airline on an other of my routes which has reduced the prices to that level and with no way of balancing LF.
And he monitored the sector.....
As I said he is free to do so, but he is not a sport!

Regards,


Mark



Offline LemonButt

  • Members
  • Posts: 1895
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2010, 06:04:38 PM »
How old was your plane?  If you had a 20 year old bird flying the route versus a brand new one, that makes a big difference as well.  Also, one route shouldn't make or break an airline...

Offline Sigma

  • Members
  • Posts: 1920
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2010, 07:37:59 PM »
In my experience price has a lot less to do with demand than people think.

While in reality, people are quite price-sensitive, in this game they usually are not.  And contrary to reality, they're not drawn by huge discounts -- I've done a lot of testing on it, and found that any increase in pax (and it's never all that large) is usually gotten in the first 50% drop in price, anything more is just a waste; so true 'dumping' doesn't really do anything for you.  There's countless other variables that count for a lot more than price, first and foremost is equipment.  Passengers don't want to fly old planes and they don't want to fly big planes when a small plane has the range.  And countless others count more than price as well.

I've gone so far as in the closing months of a game, dropping my prices to 95% off discounts, basically giving them away for free, and my pax and LF didn't really go up by that much.

So, chances are, if someone was truly dominating the demand on the route, pricing wasn't how they were going about it.

carloscarlos

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 10:21:38 AM »
ok....
just to reply to your accusations....which arent based in reality!

*when you joined the route i already satisfied the demand in 97% ish.
*all the days never went over the demand, except from one, saturday where i offered 3 extra seats. therefore when you wish to accuse some1 of dumping seats acuse them with facts, not with dreams you had on the previous night.
*my prices were never bellow satisfactory, and i can assure you my planes were breaking even!
*and yes i will defend my routes, from someone who arrives and tries to be wise by adding 300/400 places in a route that already has had the demand satisfied!



And he monitored the sector.....
As I said he is free to do so, but he is not a sport!

Regards,


Mark

as you said and it is quoted above "...i am free to do so, but he is not a sport!..", this isnt a sport, as far as im aware this is a simulation based in real world. if this was a game made for you to share routes, for sure it would be written somewhere!!!
why dont you try running your airline accordingly and let the others make their own game!?

jchaves

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 10:35:24 AM »
It's a simulation indeed, not a game. And definitely not a market sharing game.
And that's allowed. At least was the answer I always got when I had to face competition, in all scenarios that I started late, with other airlines already established and routes satisfied.
 :)

migas8982

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2010, 11:17:34 AM »
This is one of funny parts of this game, the actual coimpetition....without competition you'll never sharpen your skills...so Mark 320 stop being a 2 year old child and take things like a man and start playing this game the way it should be played, with strategy and brain

Offline ukatlantic

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  • Posts: 1780
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2010, 06:59:59 PM »
Competition is what this game is all about, I'm flying LHR-AMS too and you dont see me b/king and moaning about the route and IMHO Air Atlantis is not deploying underhand tactics - he is rightfully attempting to fulfill demand on that route with his own seats - its called competiton and is a part of the game.

Offline mark320

  • Members
  • Posts: 101
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 09:07:06 PM »
Oh yes it was like that, that was the only route that this was happening, by far. The only constructive post was from Sigma, thanks mate you know how to be a gentleman.

Funny thing trying to belittle me Migas, I will not even try to answer. Yes, it's a game at the end or at least that is what I came here for, some good clean fun. I have tried to help others during the game and there was healthy competition on most of the routes. Others will differ but don't drag me into it. Being a sport does not imply playing a sport, but who am I to say it, I am only 2 years old. LOL.

Well on the other hand I am declaring bankruptcy but I will be back as I enjoyed it. I will also use the same base as I loved the challenge and now I have better knowledge.

Now off to play with my toys!

good luck to the "sports"! ;)

Mark320
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:17:52 PM by mark320 »

carloscarlos

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2010, 09:37:45 PM »
well i am sorry if you didnt get the reply you wanted....but you didnt create the thread, stating you needed help did you?!!? you cant really expect people to be fair on you, when you make unrealistic statements!!!

dont declare bkrupcy, just because you didnt manager to get one route, that wont mean you cant do it, have fun!

cc

Offline Dasha

  • Members
  • Posts: 1001
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 07:02:28 AM »
Mark,

I understand your frustrations. The game is fair for the first two months of the game and after that it's really first come first serve. In a game like ROTMA, few players but big airports, free routes are just rare and you need bases nobody is hubbed at to have a good fighting chance.

Being in Europe is hell in that game but on the other hand, you must have noticed the size of Air Atlantis. You made the decision to compete with him but you must have known he would win it. He CAN lower prices to a level that WILL bankrupt you. In my opinion, when you know this, you should simply leave those routes alone OR try to contact Mr. Carlos and try to negotiate a deal.


Regards,

D
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

mikk_13

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 08:28:07 AM »
Don't get angry, get even. Grow big then smash 5 or 6 of his routes. Go for his long haul, they are easy to damage. All you do fly to the major airports he is flying to eg. NY, Washington, Honkong, then add the 3rd leg to his base every time. You must be strong enough to be able to fly the planes basically empty otherwise you go broke ofcourse.

Have fun

Offline mark320

  • Members
  • Posts: 101
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 12:37:16 PM »
Thanks Mikk and Chrissy,

For the record i declared bankruptcy for a number of reasons mainly rising fuel costs, too much frequency with some long haul routes and had a busy week and when i tried to mend things, it was too late!

Regarding fighting back, I will not as it is close to impossible. I cannot expand too much from where I am base, but I am happy with that. I restarted the airline and i will limit my expansion as required. I have competing routes and again nothing of the sort with Air Atlantis not even remotely close.

I am happy with my little airline and I my door is always open for anyone who wants to chat, help or even compete, fairly.

happy landings,


Mark320
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 12:45:41 PM by mark320 »

carloscarlos

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2010, 01:48:43 AM »
hi mark,

i have now had a little bit to look at your problem decently....

lets see and try to understand one thing, you state i have dumped seats into the route ams-mla.
you need to understand one thing, as long as there is demand in a route, a company can add capacity to it to satisfy it, that is not called dumping. what Air Atlantis did was purely to satisfy the demand.
you then accuse me of using unfair price rates, which according to you, were accessed and analyzed by yourself. well, i can surely confirm to you, that it is not a fact. the prices are nearly at the standart amount.

points for you to take in and consider when you create a route.

the time of the day you create it, passengers like to travel more at certain times of the day.
the type of a/c you use, passengers may not like to travel on a certain type of a/c due to not being suitable to the route.
the prices you use, when you start a route you shall never use the standart price. you have a low route image, needs to be built up before you use a "normal" price.
the marketing used with the route, who knows you are flying a certain route?! if you dont advertise it nobody will know you are there!
will you or not have competition in the route. considering all the facts i gave you above, you need to be ready to make very little profit when you start, worse when you have already somebody established in the route. your RI needs to grow in order for you to start taking a market share of that player.

then there are some secrets for you to grow and maintain your airline, but that takes time, i may know some, but will not teach you them, nobody did it to me, and i had to learn them my self, so the same applies to you!

before you point or try to point your finger at someone, i suggest you consider all the facts, even try and discuss it with other players. if in the end you reach a conclusion you are right, by all means, post it or even report it to Sami, not the way you did here. it might have been why you ended up getting some not so pleasent replies!

any doubts, ask, thats one of the reason the forum exists!

good luck with your restart!

carlos carlos

Offline Benhuddy

  • Members
  • Posts: 32
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 12:01:50 AM »
Mr Air Atlantis aint all that bad, hes letting me make money at AMS  :D :P

carloscarlos

  • Former member
Re: Air Atlantis Dumping seats on the market
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 01:09:06 AM »
u can keep norwich for now...i have a life too...not only aws...
just cant afford to get some planes to place on that route!
hehe

 

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