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Author Topic: Mmmmm not really fair...  (Read 10930 times)

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2010, 03:24:13 AM »
But, if you really want to have some fun, come challenge me in Christchurch. I'm thinking of opening up a flight to Paraparauma... Don't you know where that is? Don't worry, neither do I, and I live in New Zealand  ;D

*CLAP*

ICEcoldair881

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2010, 03:28:39 AM »
that's because of the frankly large outback desert covering most of Central Australia.... :P

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2010, 04:28:52 AM »
Swiftus, if you don't open a flight at least somewhere into that desert, we'll have to change your name to Australian Coastal... Alice Springs has over 100 per day demand... Make that happen.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2010, 04:49:19 AM »
Lol...  My 727s are now rolling in.  That will happen very soon.  I just need to start off a route with a red-eye ish type flight.  Hence why I went right for the NZ route.    Plus with all of my NAMCs coming in right now, I just want to hold tight until some of the larger aircraft and/or the 722 is launched.    If I have orders in for 721s through 1967 and its expected certification is mid 1967, can't I just change those orders around.

Pike

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2010, 03:31:30 AM »
Snowfallin....

From my admittedly limited game experiences (3 games so far), I've even seen airlines like yours go under repeatedly.  I remember in a game last year, the biggest airline in the game world went from owning a massive fleet and transporting hundreds of thousands to BK'd before the game was over.  And that was in a MUCH easier game world.  I think the proverbial excrement has yet to hit the fan in this world. 

Swiftus has been successful in each of the games I've been in with him and I'm sure he will be once again here too.

Perhaps you should save your bragging/comparisons until closer to the end of this game.  That way, should you fail (likely given your decisions thus far--no offense) it won't be nearly as embarrassing.  Just offering a friendly tidbit of advice. 

Moving on.....

I am happy that the availability of aircraft is a little better than it used to be.  I'm not happy that it is still nearly impossible to be successful with anything less than a 50 seat aircraft or greater.  It doesn't seem that even now, some time after the creation of this simulation, that it is possible to successfully simulate the operation of a small regional airline, such as SeaPort or Horizon.  Am I wrong here?  Has anyone been able to do this?  Reason I ask, is that I'd love to open up an airline in Anchorage running Beavers to the outlying communities.  That I'm aware though, this just isn't possible with staff and marketing costs....is that incorrect?


auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2010, 05:36:17 PM »
Hey Pike

Well, you can be somewhat successful with regional airlines. I run 29 seater N262s out of Christchurch in New Zealand. Given that I only just picked up a vickers viscount to go for trans-tasman and I've been quite profitable up until this point, I think it's safe to say that the regional airline idea does work. I think there's even somebody playing the strategy you mentioned out of Anchorage. You're not going to have the biggest airline, but you can definitely do regional stuff. I think the key to the strategy is having no competition whatsoever on those routes. Then you can not worry about marketing (I just let my CI hover above 0) and your profit margins are better - LFs are still fine. I also hold costs down because the 29-seater is categorized as a small aircraft, so the pilots cost less, and it's relatively efficient. The problem with this is my airline has hit a wall at this point. Because to really take on the more competitive transtasman routes, I would have to increase my company image, which would cost a fortune given the number of small routes that I run. So you can play that strategy, but you may well hit a wall, as I seem to be doing right now.

Auerbacs

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2010, 06:46:22 PM »
Hi Pike,

your advice is welcome, i'll surely do that from now.
I'll save the comparisons for me, myself and I. Though, I hope I'm not wrong saying that they've been somehow helpful, triggering swiftus' analysis.

Also you're right assuming that I'll crush my airline in the near future. I would think the same looking at my greedy decisions.
As i stated in the previous posts, i must try and fail in order to learn how to prosper, or just to understand the basics.
Time will tell if I stretched the belt too much :)

Swiftus, once again, thank you for your advices. Matter fact i already started the clean up my fleet, it'll take a while, but it'll give a positive kick to my financials.

The 731  ?
Well it was a tough decision. I analysed and compared figures. I tried strategies and strategies on excel...
Sincerely, i was curious about the price of buying a new A/C, and instead of clicking return... :)
Now I'm considering to keep it to see the implications. Who knows when my mouse will start shivering again in the front of a concorde for instance :)

Snow

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #87 on: February 19, 2010, 07:40:02 PM »
Doing this from my cell phone, so sorry for any spelling or grammar problems... 

1.  Don't get the concorde.  It will ruin you.  Unless you can fill it with c/f pax, forget it.  3000 nm range isn't so hot either.  Lastly it burns a ton of gas and its operating cost and turn ttime are insane.

2.  Lease out or sell that 731.  You will pay much more in commonality just to have that plane (even if you only get the one?

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2010, 01:29:01 AM »
Snowfallin....

From my admittedly limited game experiences (3 games so far), I've even seen airlines like yours go under repeatedly.  I remember in a game last year, the biggest airline in the game world went from owning a massive fleet and transporting hundreds of thousands to BK'd before the game was over.  And that was in a MUCH easier game world.  I think the proverbial excrement has yet to hit the fan in this world. 

Swiftus has been successful in each of the games I've been in with him and I'm sure he will be once again here too.

Perhaps you should save your bragging/comparisons until closer to the end of this game.  That way, should you fail (likely given your decisions thus far--no offense) it won't be nearly as embarrassing.  Just offering a friendly tidbit of advice. 

Moving on.....

I am happy that the availability of aircraft is a little better than it used to be.  I'm not happy that it is still nearly impossible to be successful with anything less than a 50 seat aircraft or greater.  It doesn't seem that even now, some time after the creation of this simulation, that it is possible to successfully simulate the operation of a small regional airline, such as SeaPort or Horizon.  Am I wrong here?  Has anyone been able to do this?  Reason I ask, is that I'd love to open up an airline in Anchorage running Beavers to the outlying communities.  That I'm aware though, this just isn't possible with staff and marketing costs....is that incorrect?



I wish, thats my biggest gripe with this game is that its impossible and unreal when it comes to small airlines. I have been trying to be sucessful at this for a while with beech 1900's cessna 208's and pipers. For some reason or another the game requires 2 pilots for those planes, why I dont know this should be changed. All those planes mentioned are all 1 pilot planes, maybe someday someone will finally listin and fix the fact that you dont need 2 pilots for a Cessna 208 and Beech 1900. There are some of us here that just want to run small airlines.......

Another gripe is the staffing, I have 4 pipers and have over 140 employee's. And why I need 23 pilots for 4 small planes is beyond me. I do not see the need for more than 15 people to run 4 pipers, honestly if you gave me enough energy drinks I could probably run 4 pipers myself.......

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2010, 01:41:12 AM »
Another thing that is kinda annoying is the pilot pay, especialy in the newer games. 4750+ a month for a pilot of a small plane!?!?! I did some reasearch, a first officer for skywest airlines (new hire) makes 20 bucks an hour for 60 flight hours a month, THATS IT!!! Thats $1,200 bucks a month, gotta love America! If you have too much pride to work for free, someone else will!

Running a regional airline can be done, just not in this sim apparantly. A magical 4750+ to a realistic $1,200 is a giant difference if one where to have 20-30+ airplanes.

Can we PLEASE adjust these things and make running a small regional possible and real, other than a giant fail? Thank you.

Online Sami

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2010, 02:05:46 AM »
The comparison between a newly hired trainee pilot and the whole pilot base in a group of aircraft is, sorry to say, not valid at all. The nominal salary shown here (the 4000+ with a given game year/inflation adjusted etc.) represents the average salary for all employees in that group. It includes the most senior captains and the newbie copilots too. It is however 'just a value' as it does not take into account the fact that the longer an employee is with the firm the higher his salary gets with the experience bonuses and such.. Thus the value has been chosen to broadly represent the salary paid. But anyway comparing just two individual numbers is not the point here here.  (you did not specify the game world/year here so cannot be more specific. But the salaries grow over time as inflation raises all prices, so comparing a net salary from 2007-2009 and ingame salary from 2015 is not the same.. And also the staff salary requests may add more on top of that)

The avg. pilot salaries have also gone down quite much especially in the US lately due to problems in the industry (basically too much pilots), that's not modeled here (yet?).

I am already aware that the small firms have too mch staff and methods of dealing that are under consideration. Most likely tweaking the staff numbers. Salary levels will not be adjusted probably.

Also planes such as B1900 do require two pilots when operated in commercial IFR pax flights, in Europe that is. Since it's really not possible to cover various regulations on that it shall stay like that.

Also the pilot number you referred seems to be absolutely correct. 23 pilots for 4 planes is same as only 2.8 crews per plane. The pilots do not fly 365/24/7 you know, they have rest times, days off, holidays, sicknesses etc..  ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 02:33:12 AM by sami »

LOT767

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2010, 03:24:56 AM »
The comparison between a newly hired trainee pilot and the whole pilot base in a group of aircraft is, sorry to say, not valid at all. The nominal salary shown here (the 4000+ with a given game year/inflation adjusted etc.) represents the average salary for all employees in that group. It includes the most senior captains and the newbie copilots too. It is however 'just a value' as it does not take into account the fact that the longer an employee is with the firm the higher his salary gets with the experience bonuses and such.. Thus the value has been chosen to broadly represent the salary paid. But anyway comparing just two individual numbers is not the point here here.  (you did not specify the game world/year here so cannot be more specific. But the salaries grow over time as inflation raises all prices, so comparing a net salary from 2007-2009 and ingame salary from 2015 is not the same.. And also the staff salary requests may add more on top of that)

The avg. pilot salaries have also gone down quite much especially in the US lately due to problems in the industry (basically too much pilots), that's not modeled here (yet?).

I am already aware that the small firms have too mch staff and methods of dealing that are under consideration. Most likely tweaking the staff numbers. Salary levels will not be adjusted probably.

Also planes such as B1900 do require two pilots when operated in commercial IFR pax flights, in Europe that is. Since it's really not possible to cover various regulations on that it shall stay like that.

Also the pilot number you referred seems to be absolutely correct. 23 pilots for 4 planes is same as only 2.8 crews per plane. The pilots do not fly 365/24/7 you know, they have rest times, days off, holidays, sicknesses etc..  ;)

Thank You for the very detailed answer, it is much apprecatied where the figures come from. I just know there are firms out this way that fly B1900, and EMB-120's with a single pilot. BUT they are freight dogs (Ameriflight if I am not mistaken) so I don't know the rules on that, I am only a student pilot so my knowledge is VERY limited. ATC is more my department ;) Take Care!

ban2

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2010, 06:56:54 PM »
i think it has become easier to make money with smaller planes, i currently have a lot of routes averaging 20 pax they're profitable but only just.

my opinion is you need at least a 30 seater to turn a reasonable profit margin oh and forget leasing.

auerbacs

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2010, 04:45:07 PM »
I'm leasing 12 29-seaters and making good profit. Currently, I have no other planes except the 29-seaters, but I'm moving into some 50 seaters soon. It's not as hard as you think to profit with small planes. You just need to keep very few fleets to save on commonality and also to abandon marketing to some degree. By picking up all the small routes, you avoid competition and don't need a CI much above 0.

Offline Daveos

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2010, 12:03:21 PM »
when it's snowing all over the place ...suddenly the silence spreads out :)

BUMP  ;)

With AJK Airlines near demise, I was wondering if anything had been learned from the little outburst early on?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:05:38 PM by Daveos »

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2010, 10:19:38 PM »
Quote
I was wondering if anything had been learned from the little outburst early on

But of course there were learnings...

Here are some:
- grow as fast as you can, from the very beginning.
- Get loans, buy everything on the market (but not below 50seats),
- book as much of those slots asap, as you'll never have the chance later on. The game will become boring sooner than you expect.
- expand! expand! expand! with 2-3 watchouts. the most important: forecast your fluctuations in earnings and expenditures.
For me it was impossible to kill myself even if i'd ve tried harder. I had more than 5 a/c types in the very beggining, invested in marketing, and reached 90 image, had like over 120 a/c.
My company accounted for 60% of MCO airport, both competing MCO airlines bankrupted instantly after game launch.

So..as a summary (though I said I'll stop comparing, I can see they are expected):
AJK Airlines:
- reached 9th place in pax transported in few days after launch
- maintained 10th place all the time and was preparing for top5
- had ~60 fully booked a/c and ordered another 60 (that were landed at my garage later on)
- had +70 Mn cash (with no loans) and  ~2Mn incremental every game week (considering, constant+85 company image)
- dominated base airport with +60% share (far less share in slots occupied)
- ... you name it ...AJK owned it!!!

By the time the other 60 a/c were delivered, I started to build additional routes, but. soon, decided it's not worth anymore to invest serious time (more 3-4 hours a day every week day) to build additional routes mainly because i had to designate routes day by day searching for the right hour to spot a free slot.

With no threat at all, nothing to optimise, nothing to conquer, no real leverages to push other airlines in bankruptcy... nothing to do at all besides spending hours to spot a slot... got a bit boring.

One more thing about learnings (btw, AJK maintained allthe time the 10th position...by far the highest rank of any other advice givers in this topic). The most important drawback i had was i decided to discharge my 6 a/c type fleet and keep only2 types of brand new planes.

Cheers,
Snow

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2010, 10:23:24 PM »
btw, i trully expect the first comment to be regarding my spelling and grammar, and the second explaining again how interesting the game is, how unexperimented AJK manager is,  and how childish my behaviour is. Read the post history for a short review.

Offline Daveos

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2010, 10:28:55 PM »
I was more intrigued by what had happened to your airline, as you were doing well.

Have you just not attended to your airline recently then?  I was wondering why you were heading towards bankruptcy.  Have you just not been playing for a while?

EDIT:  I had this problem in DOTM and MT#1 where I bankrupted my airlines because there was nothing to do other than tweak things.  Both were 12th in airline value in these worlds and completely controlled Amsterdam and Manchester respectively
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:53:25 PM by Daveos »

Online schro

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2010, 10:48:39 PM »
The main thing I noticed with AJK, at least with routes to Atlanta, is that about double the daily demand on the route was flown - not exactly my idea of the most profitable way to run a business...

Offline Daveos

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2010, 10:55:51 PM »
I was just surprised because we're only a third the way through the world and thought he might have seen it out.  I've been sat in HKG for the last 2 years doing nothing other than minor tweaks, as there are no slots, but that's part of it at this stage.

 

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