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Author Topic: Mmmmm not really fair...  (Read 10928 times)

Offline carrisi

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  • Posts: 770
Mmmmm not really fair...
« on: February 09, 2010, 06:06:48 AM »

Has anyone else noticed how the financials of the Britannia and the Viscount are superior to the rest by a long way - and yet there were so few to buy, and they are all gone...??  :(

ucfknightryan

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 06:45:00 AM »
Yeah, I missed out on the viscounts cause I was trying to figure out if it would work for me and took too long to click the button. The price of fuel being what it is right now though, I don't think it's likely to kill you in the short-medium term  :laugh:  The real danger is that you have to fight 5! other airlines at your base for pax.

Pike

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 04:38:54 PM »
Well I guess some things just never change in this game.

It's been about a year since I was active here, and even then availability of aircraft was a serious
competitive imbalance. 

It's one of the reasons I wasn't willing to pay to play until I could get in on day one of a new game.  And even now,
because I missed the start by a couple of hours I find myself like the OP at a disadvantage.

Suppose it's whining to say so, but it remains a part of the game I'm not a big fan of.


Offline TranceAvia

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  • Posts: 440
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 04:55:05 PM »
but to be fair, there is not a limitless supply of aircraft out there. how many airlines would love to start up from a superhub and get the exact plane teh wanted. its about making the best of a bad situation. i took Vickers Vikings and Convair CV880's with the mind of having them all replaced within a few years if i survive the Pearson Blood Bath

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 07:07:15 PM »
is this a joke or what ?
i couldnt imagine that somebody can build such an infantile simulation.
I'm within the game since a month or so, but keep surprising me in a negative way.

Above all, the funniest part...u have to pay for this

seriously speaking,  admins / owners...for how much will you sell the business ? it's such a pity seeing it wasted because of ignorance.

Offline Sami

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    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 07:45:00 PM »
May I ask what in earth are you talking about.

If you have proper feedback and constructive critisism we are happy to hear that. That post does not fall into that category though.

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 08:25:31 PM »
is this a joke or what ?
i couldnt imagine that somebody can build such an infantile simulation.
I'm within the game since a month or so, but keep surprising me in a negative way.

Above all, the funniest part...u have to pay for this

seriously speaking,  admins / owners...for how much will you sell the business ? it's such a pity seeing it wasted because of ignorance.

Could you PM me a link to a better multiplayer airline simulation?

Hwoarang

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2010, 08:37:26 PM »
is this a joke or what ?
i couldnt imagine that somebody can build such an infantile simulation.
I'm within the game since a month or so, but keep surprising me in a negative way.

Above all, the funniest part...u have to pay for this

seriously speaking,  admins / owners...for how much will you sell the business ? it's such a pity seeing it wasted because of ignorance.
Sami is putting many hours in developing, improving and expanding this great game. Why it isn't normal that you'll pay for this game? There are not irritating commercials to make it free. I like it this way. If you don't like this game and not willing to pay for it, go and develop your own airline simulation game!

Misterfeep

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2010, 09:38:52 PM »
is this a joke or what ?
i couldnt imagine that somebody can build such an infantile simulation.
I'm within the game since a month or so, but keep surprising me in a negative way.

Above all, the funniest part...u have to pay for this

seriously speaking,  admins / owners...for how much will you sell the business ? it's such a pity seeing it wasted because of ignorance.

I'd reply but why waste my effort on ignorance.

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 10:45:29 PM »
@Sami:
Take Pike's post for debate
specifically my post was about the frustration of waiting a month to start the simulation from the very beginning, with equal resources and just hours after the game starts i see myself in a disadvantaged position, and i'm not the only one.

About the feedback:
1. manual - if you ask somebody to pay for.. something you should deliver a game experience, at least a complete package with minimum requirements like a completed manual :(
2. important periods in the game - if there will be one hour of aircraft booking and nothing else after, put that into a tips&tricks list. this way everybody will know that if they wont be online that hour, they'll ..regret. Will there be aircraft releases after a while...specify that from the begininng :(
3. variable used/simulated - in this game you have to try, get decisively wrong, reset and start again. do something else wrong, reset, start again. You dont have any source of info to get an understanding of consequences/benefits for a decision, but by making it. :(
4. game concepts & economics - a short question: The market share is calculated to volume, value, no of flights, else... ? :(
5. data & info transparency - other airlines prices, why not visible ? if this is an economic simulation (which i think it is), you should base your business decision on a set of indicators and competitive analysis. imho this is completely missed. most important is to hope for a large airport with few airlines and set some routes. if somebody has a higher SOM, then you should assume it has lower prices. Does it ? how low ? is it the daytime for the flight ? or maybe that airline heavily invested in Mktg ? else...? :(
6. easiness in agregating data to build your own indicators, databases, in order to make solid ground decisions - it takes me hours if I try to aggregate something...but probably it's just me :(
7. simplicity - for every route information it pops up a new unmanageable window :(
8. objectives & calibration - i understood from the forum, that there are no objectives, no hierarchies nothing. you just compete to your own objectives. How can I go for revenue objective if it happens to start when 50% in progress. How can I go for SOM, when I just started, lost 2 hours to set my airport, and build a route/aircraft strategy and the very next day a 100 aircraft airline decides to cover all my routes (could he just drop the prices by 80-90% for couple of months ? is that possible ? would that count for its billion revenue ?) :(
9. real life simulation - there are explanations like "but to be fair, there is not a limitless supply of aircraft out there", but could it be a calibrated starting budget ? so that you cand afford to lease 5-10 aircraft, dispose huge amounts for mktg, while still having some coins for a moon trip. Maybe having the budget calibrated to 1-2 aircraft lease and no mktg, or 1 aircraft and some mktg or...would make people more conscious when leasing like crazy, choosing a super-hubs with 5 airlines already :(
10. after first days momentum - there's no fun anymore. if you start later, then you just have to admit that everybody owns 50-100 aircrafts and the business related, while u'll struggle for 3 of them until a big shark spots u. actually this is a real life well simulation :)
11. ..
12. ...

I'll stop here, sorry for the previous post, i was kind of vague, liberating my frustration. Now i'm cool.
Just discovered that in one-two years i might get 1 even 2 medium aircrafts :)

@Hwoa...
buddy, i already payed, and repayed...that means that i'm willing to pay. I found this simulation interesting as a concept, but if i pay, even a small amount, I assume some quality standards. at least a progressive plan of improvements.
If this would've been free, my first post would sound like this: sami, thanks for the time dedicated here, u managed to build a quite fair simulation ...i was thinking for this idea/improvement....(got the idea ?)
now feel free to hate me :)

@kontio i havent searched alot for airlines simulators, but i recommend erepublik.ro as an economic simulation. There's also a very dedicated self-driven community outhere. It's quite enjoyable...addictable :)

Have a good night folks, and dont take it personal, honestly i'm well intentioned.

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 10:46:57 PM »
@ misterfeep
please feel free to reply it'll be constructive debate

Offline Daveos

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 11:12:17 PM »
@Sami:
Take Pike's post for debate
specifically my post was about the frustration of waiting a month to start the simulation from the very beginning, with equal resources and just hours after the game starts i see myself in a disadvantaged position, and i'm not the only one...


I'll let others dissect the feedback you left, as everything you mention is within the forum somewhere.

Everybody feels frustrated when they first start this game.  You can't expect to waltz into any given game and be successful.  It takes hard work and hours and hours of devotion to build a profitable and successful airline in the games.  Some people get lucky and find the winning formula straight away, but (and I acknowledge you've apologised) you can't just come on and claim that the game is a waste of time and 'infantile'.  There are so many variables and different players that every game changes hugely.

Most of all, I think you should understand - as you must not do - that it is a work in constant progress.  Just look at the length of the features request thread.  There have been dozens, if not hundreds of tweaks, that have made the game more durable and realistic.  I cannot imagine how many hours of hard work Sami has put into this and I feel he deserves a little more respect from you.

This game brings together a huge variety of people interested in the concept, in aviation and computers/new media.  You should also pay them a bit more respect and control your frustration.  Your feedback is the first step - become involved and help - not moan and throw your toys out of the pram because your first attempt isn't what you hoped.  Things take time and practice here - patience is something society as a whole lacks and your post embodied that problem.  There's a huge variety of interesting and great people on this site.

Please take this too as well intentioned :)  I'm sure a lot of others won't be as sympathetic with you.

Dave
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 12:15:39 AM by Daveos »

Pike

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 02:54:15 AM »
I'm not new to the game, so I know what to expect getting started.  And yet here I am 2 days in and sitting here with nothing to do.

Lasted about a month before I realized that my one Convair was never going to hold the company over for the 5 month wait to get my
first B721.  So I start over, and now am sitting here wondering if anything outside of the DC-3, Commando, or Russian junk will come available. 

Having played a couple games before, I know better than to invest the future of my company in a bunch of 18 year old 30 seat aircraft that top out at 120 knots. 

Just surprised that a year later the idea that the amount of aircraft available is not sufficient for the # of players still hasn't been corrected.  If nothing else, restricting the number of players per game would be useful.  Certainly in the real world there's only so many aircraft to go around...but I dare say there's more than found in this game during this time period.  And I can't forget that this is after all a game, so if anything I'd think the error would be on the side of having too many, not too few resources.

Anyway, if this hasn't changed by now I don't suppose it ever will.  Just dissapointing is all.


Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 03:17:14 AM »
is this a joke or what ?
i couldnt imagine that somebody can build such an infantile simulation.
I'm within the game since a month or so, but keep surprising me in a negative way.

Above all, the funniest part...u have to pay for this

seriously speaking,  admins / owners...for how much will you sell the business ? it's such a pity seeing it wasted because of ignorance.

If your in for a month and still can't figure out how the game works I suggest you delete your acount and creata a new one to go to the newby world #5

Offline swiftus27

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  • Posts: 4395
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 05:24:06 PM »
I will only agree in part to say that those airlines who get some early planes often are the ones who excel in-game.

Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 08:17:17 PM »
sami you were happy to hear my feedback.
Should I expect a reply on that ?

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 09:13:44 PM »
I am going to tackle this one line by line:

@Sami:
Take Pike's post for debate
specifically my post was about the frustration of waiting a month to start the simulation from the very beginning, with equal resources and just hours after the game starts i see myself in a disadvantaged position, and i'm not the only one.   The game was announced in advance.  With current changes, it is hard to become a powerhouse in one day.  I ended up with a Convair 340/440 fleet because of it and am making due

About the feedback:
1. manual - if you ask somebody to pay for.. something you should deliver a game experience, at least a complete package with minimum requirements like a completed manual :(  You hardly pay for these games.  This game is a work in progress and has been for the year I have been apart of it.  Have you read the noob guides and other tip threads in the forums?  Making a manual for a game that is in constant transition is just stupid.
2. important periods in the game - if there will be one hour of aircraft booking and nothing else after, put that into a tips&tricks list. this way everybody will know that if they wont be online that hour, they'll ..regret. Will there be aircraft releases after a while...specify that from the begininng :( What are you talking about?
3. variable used/simulated - in this game you have to try, get decisively wrong, reset and start again. do something else wrong, reset, start again. You dont have any source of info to get an understanding of consequences/benefits for a decision, but by making it. :(  Um, okay.  This is why it is called a SIMULATION and not a game.  Go ask our resident failure expert.  You can find him in Wisconsin.
4. game concepts & economics - a short question: The market share is calculated to volume, value, no of flights, else... ? :( Go look at Airline Statistics if you are so enamored with data.  An airport's market share is determined by the number of pax divided by the number of total pax moving through the airport
5. data & info transparency - other airlines prices, why not visible ? if this is an economic simulation (which i think it is), you should base your business decision on a set of indicators and competitive analysis. imho this is completely missed. most important is to hope for a large airport with few airlines and set some routes. if somebody has a higher SOM, then you should assume it has lower prices. Does it ? how low ? is it the daytime for the flight ? or maybe that airline heavily invested in Mktg ? else...? :( Even in a simulation you can't know everything about your competition.  Sure, other airline's flight prices are known in real life but you still have to have a small portion of AWS that is a game and requires skill.
6. easiness in agregating data to build your own indicators, databases, in order to make solid ground decisions - it takes me hours if I try to aggregate something...but probably it's just me :( AGAIN, IT IS A SIMULATION!  What do you want to have done?  You can't task all of this on the server.  Make do with what you have and work with it.  Sit down for a whopping hour and jot down which airports will yield you the best rewards
7. simplicity - for every route information it pops up a new unmanageable window :( again, no idea what you are talking about here
8. objectives & calibration - i understood from the forum, that there are no objectives, no hierarchies nothing. you just compete to your own objectives. How can I go for revenue objective if it happens to start when 50% in progress. How can I go for SOM, when I just started, lost 2 hours to set my airport, and build a route/aircraft strategy and the very next day a 100 aircraft airline decides to cover all my routes (could he just drop the prices by 80-90% for couple of months ? is that possible ? would that count for its billion revenue ?) :( you can't price dump that much. 
9. real life simulation - there are explanations like "but to be fair, there is not a limitless supply of aircraft out there", but could it be a calibrated starting budget ? so that you cand afford to lease 5-10 aircraft, dispose huge amounts for mktg, while still having some coins for a moon trip. Maybe having the budget calibrated to 1-2 aircraft lease and no mktg, or 1 aircraft and some mktg or...would make people more conscious when leasing like crazy, choosing a super-hubs with 5 airlines already :( Okay, this is just wrong.  Let people start where they choose and succeed/fail accordingly
10. after first days momentum - there's no fun anymore. if you start later, then you just have to admit that everybody owns 50-100 aircrafts and the business related, while u'll struggle for 3 of them until a big shark spots u. actually this is a real life well simulation :) hence why there are so many different worlds to play in


I'll stop here, sorry for the previous post, i was kind of vague, liberating my frustration. Now i'm cool.
Just discovered that in one-two years i might get 1 even 2 medium aircrafts :) if you played it right, you could have ordered many.  Don't expect to have a fleet full of 721s.  This is why this simulation was altered to allow for the block ordering system.  There are so many planes to choose from on the new market, you could easily make money.
 
@Hwoa...
buddy, i already payed, and repayed...that means that i'm willing to pay. I found this simulation interesting as a concept, but if i pay, even a small amount, I assume some quality standards. at least a progressive plan of improvements.
If this would've been free, my first post would sound like this: sami, thanks for the time dedicated here, u managed to build a quite fair simulation ...i was thinking for this idea/improvement....(got the idea ?)
now feel free to hate me :)  PAID, not Payed.  You dare say that the quality of this simulation is crap.  Go make your own better one and make your millions.  OR, perhaps you can suggest something constructive.  How many times has your name appeared in Feature Requests?

@kontio i havent searched alot for airlines simulators, but i recommend erepublik.ro as an economic simulation. There's also a very dedicated self-driven community outhere. It's quite enjoyable...addictable :) is RO romania?

Have a good night folks, and dont take it personal, honestly i'm well intentioned. sure seems that way

It looks to me that you just want a pretty game with tons of graphics.  This isn't going to happen.  This simulation is constantly evolving.

Offline Sami

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    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 10:19:49 PM »
Some things:

manual

 - is incomplete because of constant development. The "finished features" are written to manual, like new a/c ordering system.
 - a new publishing tool is also planned for it which would mean that users could also contribute there.


if there will be one hour of aircraft booking and nothing else after

 - There is no such period, and can't understand where you have gotten this impression. The used a/c market for example is refreshed regularily, even on the first 24hour "turn".


in this game you have to try, get decisively wrong, reset and start again

  - There cannot be a complete hands-on tutorial telling you every aspect. But the necessary basics ARE covered in manual's Startup Guide.

  - The learning curve is very steep since there are many features and realistic aspects here so getting it 'wrong' 1-3 times is simply natural (and mind you, a player can restart his airline 4 times without any additional cost per game world).


market share

  - Market share at airport is your share of the sales generated (calculated from sold seats vs. all available seats).


other airlines prices, why not visible

  - Please search the forum for this, talked before.
  - An assumption that "other airlines in reality see all the prices of their competition" is really not completely valid as that is not the fact due to very complex price mechanisms of airlines. And here we have only one price class for each seat class so displaying that information would not provide anything good (but more info elsewhere on the forum, I believe it was in feature rq forum)

  - Price is definitely NOT the only aspect that affects your sales and one cannot assume that if other airline sells more that he is selling cheaper. There are 10-15 variables affecting the sales(!).


for every route information it pops up a new unmanageable window

  - No idea really what you refer to here? But the popups are used to ease the navigation and reduce unnecessary jumping back and forth on the pages.
  - If you have improvement suggestions please post to Feature rq. forum.


that there are no objectives

  - In reality when running a business your only objective is to make money, right? (at least in most cases)
  - There are some (distant) ideas for creating some objectives / scenarios / tasks however, but not sure how that would fit here.


Snowfallin

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 10:43:40 PM »
guys, thank you for your replies.

I'll state these clear:
- it was foolish from me to say that is an infantile simulation (far from being true, ..far from perfection)
- my first post was highly disrespectful regarding admins work. truly apologize for that.

Nevertheless, reading the last 2 replies, just make it clear for me that we have significantly different points of view regarding online business simulations, so I wont continue this discussion anymore.

Dave, I'll enjoy it patiently :)


castelino009

  • Former member
Re: Mmmmm not really fair...
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 11:05:27 PM »
" Rome was not built in a day"

I guess you know all what this means.

Respect, plan, have fun & enjoy the  game. dont like it dont play it

VJC

 

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