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Author Topic: [-] Variable airport sizes  (Read 1283 times)

Offline Dasha

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[-] Variable airport sizes
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:20:10 AM »
I know this has been asked before but I could not locate the original thread so I just start a new one.

At any given time Atlanta is the biggest airport in the US and LHR the biggest in Europe. Now I can imagine that they were not always the biggest airport.
I know they are based on passengers but for example if nobody in a game is flying to ATL, that airport would have a lower demand. Same when an airline uses a small airport as it's secondary hub, the potential passengers are higher.

Example.

Zantha in the Rise of the modern airliners is using Durango - La Plata as a secondary hub, mostly for tech stops. Obviously this gets around and more passengers want to go to Durango - La Plata to catch the second leg of the flight. On an airport the size of Durango it probably would not make a big difference but on an airport the size of Moscow or Berlin that would make sense.

So basically change the passenger demand with the capacity being flown by airlines.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 12:02:57 PM by sami »
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Unbornio

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:36:44 AM »
Please use the search function.... I think Sami is underway with calculating population data on his Google Maps. I can't remember which thread said that..
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Offline Dasha

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:56:29 AM »
Please use the search function.... I think Sami is underway with calculating population data on his Google Maps. I can't remember which thread said that..

Please use the read function...

I said I could not locate the original thread..
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Unbornio

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 11:25:17 AM »
My apologies, I missed the first part.  :-[
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Offline Sami

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 07:18:15 PM »
on this topic ...

It may be beneficial for the future to allow airports to grow if the airlines based there grow. In other words; the facilities would be updated if there's need for it. (think of the POSSIBLE new pax model that is not tied to airports but locations!). Even runways and slot numbers could change making it more dynamic.


HOWEVER .. It now comes to the question how much from the reality do we wish to move? Would you think it would be wise to allow some airport (let's say Gatwick) to grow over the years (by having a new runway built for example) if the airport is full and there's lots of new travel potential etc? Or should it be so that we'd code how the airports have expanded in the history (1950-present) and follow that fixed path?

Both have their up and downsides..

Offline Sanabas

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 07:57:11 PM »
If there's the possibility of running games on different servers with different algorithms, I'd vote for both. Having at least some of the game worlds depart from reality to make for a different experience would be good.

Jps

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 08:22:17 PM »
I, too, would like these both implemented. I realize it's much more work, but on the other hand it gives a great variation to gameplay; some like to play it real from day 1, while others like to see how they are making the difference in the game. You could even play 2 games at once in the same airport and still have a very different game experience.

So, maybe there should be some simple variables that limit how much an airport may grow/diminish in the game. For example a four stage limit, that ranges from 1- follows history, does not grow after 2012 (or grows like now), to 4 - all airports start at their historical size for that year, but are then totally dependant on player actions.
And when creating the game, admin could choose which limit to use for the game.

However, if it comes to only choosing one option, you could make it player-driven, but include certain larger airports that are in or close to a city and prevent them from growing too much.

Offline Daveos

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2011, 08:39:39 PM »
As mentioned above, if there was a chance to run different types of growth then that would of course be favourable.



The chance to change history and directly affect the airport's growth would greatly excite me.  Being able to mould the airport around the airline would perhaps reflect some of the decisions made in reality in commercial aviation.  It would also remove the need to find historical data on all the airports in AWS as it would be a massive task to ascertain when airports added extra capacity such as runways and terminals.

On saying this though, the main negative impact is that the path of reality has been created in part by various restrictions that dynamic airports would remove.  LGW for example, cannot even apply for a new runway until 2019 due to regulation.  Allowing airports to grow as airlines required would remove huge social and economic factors that play their part in reality.

I would therefore (despite the initial excitement of an airline moulded world) think that if one type has to be chosen, airports should follow the path of history to represent the restrictions of governance and regulation.  Like aircraft production dates the addition of capacity could perhaps be varied a little so that there is some sort of element of surprise when it does increase.

Riger

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 02:03:50 AM »
The idea of a user driven growth of airports (capacity and demand) is excellent IMHO.  This will give players an opportunity to invest in one of the "lesser" airports and (possibly) eventually "compete" with players at the traditionally larger airports. An additional metric for a players success could be how their airline contributed toward the growth of the airport over a period of time (hopefully the duration of the game).  This would certainly take the pressure off the (player's) demand to operate from one of the big airports, thus tapping into much of the unused demand in the game.

I know that this causes a deviation from the "Reality", but this is a Simulation, not an Emulation and whilst the purists at heart may scoff at the idea, the fact remains that the dynamic of the game would change and the results (per game) would probably always be different (less predictable). Simulating certain conditions is what allows us to see the results of the "what if's".

Some careful thought will need to go into the rate of growth over the gameplay duration but I am sure that are enough clever cookies around here to come up with some sound ideas.

I don't know how likely this concept is of getting off the ground but, it gets a +1 from me.

Best Regards

Richard

 

 

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 07:43:08 PM »
I know that this causes a deviation from the "Reality", but this is a Simulation, not an Emulation and whilst the purists at heart may scoff at the idea, the fact remains that the dynamic of the game would change and the results (per game) would probably always be different (less predictable). Simulating certain conditions is what allows us to see the results of the "what if's".

I am all for airports growing based on demand.  And, BTW, excellent way to put it.  This is a Simulation, not an Emulation.

I think the extend the game should comply with reality is that at the start of the game world, the airports should roughly correspond to the airports in real world at the time.  But from that point, the airports should grow based on the usage of slots at the airport.

 

Offline TFC1

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 08:19:17 PM »
And by allowing a more dynamic approach to airport growth, it would be possible to simulate the growth of LCCs like Ryanair and Southwest. An airline resembling Ryanair would not be possible to simulate if all the secondary airports they fly to do not grow or develop with expansion through the addition of new routes.

A few other what-ifs would also surface, a 4th large airport in the greater New York-area, expansion at Luton, maybe Mirabel actually is successful at some point  ::)

robvanleest

  • Former member
Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 08:02:17 AM »
I totally agree with what has been said before.

Some kind of historical data as a baseline is OK but in real life airports grow because there is demand. How much they grow is depending on all kinds of restrictions. However, in the end ... most of them will grow!

In the game it should be connected to demand contrary to historical figures. This simply because history should not repeat itself. If everything is programmed to match historical data, it will remove the fun because the game will develop quite predictable. This is something we already see in all game worlds. Many people will jump into some specific airports because (from historical point of view) these are the ones proven to be the best...

Better to keep it a bit more random. This is the way it works in real life anyway .... it is all about supply and demand...

tarbyonline

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 03:21:37 PM »
Im another in favour of variable airport sizes, but it must be based on the population of the local and wider area.  For example we have 2 airports in Belfast.   Historically the international airport has been the busier but now the City Airport is catching up.  The international also handles a lot of charter traffic and operates 24hrs whereas the city is pretty much all scheduled and operates under restricted hours.  It would be good if the demand was able to shift between the 2 airports based on services offered rather than being static as in reality the 2 airports are not very far apart and so have the same "catchment" area, for example 2000 people per day want to fly from Belfast to London rather than 300 from the city to heathrow, 200 from the international to heathrow, 150 from the city to gatwick, etc, etc. 

Another plus for this would be that we could develop airports based on where the population live rather than on reputation.  Who is to say for example that Katowice in Poland will stay the same size now that money is being spent on tourism?  Afterall this is a city with 5,294,000 inhabitants in its metropolitan area and the highest paid workforce with the lowest unemployment rate in Poland.  At current Katowice Airport has 2,403,253 passengers per year, however the metropolitan population is more than 3 times that of the entire country of Northern Ireland (as used in the example above) so surely in time those passenger figures will grow and passengers should be able to attracted from other airports such as Krakow which currently handles 2,680,322 and is only 80km away.

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2011, 08:15:01 PM »
Im another in favour of variable airport sizes, but it must be based on the population of the local and wider area.  For example we have 2 airports in Belfast.   Historically the international airport has been the busier but now the City Airport is catching up.  The international also handles a lot of charter traffic and operates 24hrs whereas the city is pretty much all scheduled and operates under restricted hours.  It would be good if the demand was able to shift between the 2 airports based on services offered rather than being static as in reality the 2 airports are not very far apart and so have the same "catchment" area, for example 2000 people per day want to fly from Belfast to London rather than 300 from the city to heathrow, 200 from the international to heathrow, 150 from the city to gatwick, etc, etc. 

You should follow (and post) in this thread on this subject:
http://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,3260.0.html

In the game it should be connected to demand contrary to historical figures. This simply because history should not repeat itself. If everything is programmed to match historical data, it will remove the fun because the game will develop quite predictable. This is something we already see in all game worlds. Many people will jump into some specific airports because (from historical point of view) these are the ones proven to be the best...

Exactly, we just playing the same game over and over.

The airports should grow where successful airlines locate their hubs.  The game should not be totally dictated by the fact that Delta has a huge hub in Atlanta.

2 things are needed for this to happen (that every game would be a "new" game):
  • Passenger connectivity (Big airports are big because a lot of passengers transfer there.  Atlanta is a prime example) This will probably be version 2.0 (if ever)
  • Airports (airport slots) should grow based on demand.  This could be done in 1.3 so that the following version is not such and overwhelming update

tarbyonline

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »
Cheers JS.  Didnt realise we already had a city specific demand thread!

Offline JumboShrimp

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 10:28:40 PM »
Cheers JS.  Didnt realise we already had a city specific demand thread!

That's a great thread to read from beginning to the end.  Sami has been doing some exploratory work on some aspects of it.

Offline TK1244

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2011, 10:48:55 PM »
HOWEVER .. It now comes to the question how much from the reality do we wish to move? Would you think it would be wise to allow some airport (let's say Gatwick) to grow over the years (by having a new runway built for example) if the airport is full and there's lots of new travel potential etc? Or should it be so that we'd code how the airports have expanded in the history (1950-present) and follow that fixed path?
The fuel price can be like in Real-world or Custom, maybe you can model something like this also for the airport growth?
TK Regional

Offline JonesyUK

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Re: Variable airport sizes
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 02:44:32 PM »
IMO you need to let the game be more dynamic after the start point. Data should be historically accurate at game start then change according to players actions.... even to the point of creating new plane types if a type is successful (e.g. a new variant of vc10). If a planes early model is unsuccessful then later variants should not be released.

This would make the game more realistic than sticking rigidly to real world data

Offline Sami

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