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Author Topic: Feedback so far  (Read 9113 times)

Offline Sami

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Feedback so far
« on: November 17, 2009, 08:00:24 PM »
So ... Tell me, how does this single-continent game feel? 

It's been only some days since it started but feel free to post feedback throughout the game play time.

Offline Dasha

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 08:07:38 PM »
I love it....

maybe a little bit too much players but I guess that add's to the hard scenario...
So far I really enjoy it, as it finally pays off to fly with small airplanes to small airports.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Offline Sami

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 08:14:58 PM »
So far I really enjoy it, as it finally pays off to fly with small airplanes to small airports.

What has been the biggest change helping this to work? And what is still needed?

Offline Daveos

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 08:41:13 PM »
I'm enjoying the Euro Challenge much more than the North American one, which I left after a couple of weeks.

I think it works better for 3 main reasons:

1.  It is in the modern era.  I don't know why, but the game always seems more fun in modern times
2.  I think there is more choice when it comes to starting a base.
3.  Europe is much more compact than N. America and so smaller aircraft are more useful = difference to other games.  The longest route in the game is probably only about 2000NM.

There are still plenty of routes with capacity spare, but I think in a couple of days competition will be pretty intense.  All in all I think its going well.

Cheers,

Dave :)

Offline jimsom

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 08:48:21 PM »
What has been the biggest change helping this to work? And what is still needed?

The biggest problem with really small operators is still the staff levels. It seems to be a bit high, especially with route strategies and customer services. But I know that this is going to be rebuilt later(?), which is very good.

Another thing is the pricing, smaller operators (especially companies flying unpopular routes) often takes much higher ticket prices than what's possible in this game (without loosing all customers).

---------------------

And another thing, that aircrafts are removed from production because of that airlines don't have the time to order planes.
This happened with the Saab 2000, it was removed from production a week or two after game start.

In addition to this, haven't noted any Saab 340B in service or available to buy? A bug?

But otherways, it's working good and the competition seems to be hard sometimes.  A very enjoyable game!
(This will be even better when multiple HUBs is allowed)
/ jimsom

Offline debitants

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 08:55:55 PM »
For me as well SAAB problem hurts :)

And I`m wondering, can it be successful to fly with some 19 place planes, if the required staff level is so high?

Offline Sami

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 08:56:51 PM »
Smaller routes are usually subsidized, thus the high prices I guess.

For Saab 2000 the production removal was most likely set to happen just around the game start date and in those cases the system decides to close them anyway, but if it's +3-4 months from the start then it would stay open until orders are received or about 10 months of game has passed which after the prod.line closure system kicks in. (that is a guess though, have not checked it for this model)

S340B is probably (??) still so new that it's not in the used list.

Offline jimsom

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2009, 09:03:31 PM »
Smaller routes are usually subsidized, thus the high prices I guess.

For Saab 2000 the production removal was most likely set to happen just around the game start date and in those cases the system decides to close them anyway, but if it's +3-4 months from the start then it would stay open until orders are received or about 10 months of game has passed which after the prod.line closure system kicks in. (that is a guess though, have not checked it for this model)

S340B is probably (??) still so new that it's not in the used list.

Yeah, I guess. But I think passengers should accept higher pricing, when there's no competition.

The Saab 2000 is a great aircraft, and an important competitor to the other 50-seat props at the time. It's a good option to use
before the Q400 is released some years after. Why not raise this limit to make these aircraft stay? The Saab don't have any successor
(like the BAe 146 have).

And you might be right about the 340B. Let's wait and see what's happening.
/ jimsom

Offline Sami

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2009, 09:04:34 PM »
But I think passengers should accept higher pricing, when there's no competition.

They do actually, or let's say "they do better than in v.1.1 games"... But still the decline of demand is rather steep with price increase over "suggested".

Offline jimsom

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2009, 09:20:14 PM »
They do actually, or let's say "they do better than in v.1.1 games"... But still the decline of demand is rather steep with price increase over "suggested".

Ok, great!

But as I said, staff seems to be the "worst" problem. I have looked around a bit, and I can see that companies with around 10 small planes have around 70-80 employees, compared to around 250 in AWS. So, when this finnally will be fixed, it'll be a huge step for profitable regional carriers.
/ jimsom

Offline Sami

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2009, 09:22:10 PM »
If you have more data on staff numbers, are you able to collect some list to me on that (company name, fleet size, aircraft types used, number of staff) so I'd have more data for the base of the calculations. (as I haven't looked into that at all yet)

(if you don't have, no problem)

Offline jimsom

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 10:00:04 PM »
If you have more data on staff numbers, are you able to collect some list to me on that (company name, fleet size, aircraft types used, number of staff) so I'd have more data for the base of the calculations. (as I haven't looked into that at all yet)

(if you don't have, no problem)

Of course, glad I can help out. :) Here's a small list with some mixed operators:

Code: [Select]
Company: Direktflyg
Origin: Sweden
Aircraft: 10
Types: Jetstream 32
Employees: 80

Company: FlyVLM
Origin: Netherlands
Aircraft: 21
Types: Fokker 50
Employees: 450

Company: Great Barrier Airlines
Origin: New Zealand
Aircraft: 9
Types: Piper PA31, Piper PA28, Britten-Norman Trislander/Islander, Partenavia P68
Employees: 30

Company: Binter Canarias
Origin: Spain
Aircraft: 19
Types: ATR 72
Employees: 406

Company: Sun-Air of Scandinavia
Origin: Denmark
Aircraft: 14
Types: Dornier 328, Jetstream 31/32
Employees: 225

Company: Írebro Aviation
Origin: Sweden
Aircraft: 2
Types: Piper PA31 Navajo
Employees: 10

Company: Aurigny Air Services
Origin: UK
Aircraft: 10
Types: ATR 72, Britten-Norman Trislander
Employees: 290
/ jimsom

castelino009

  • Former member
Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 11:31:47 PM »
Sami,

EC is great so far, just too many players I think. 180 is a lot, i guess 100 looks about right. Also A310-300 is no more in the game(new to order) why are we getting it in the used markets ??

As A310-300 line was open till 2006+  in real life and other games, just curious, Also A300 isnt a  a very large aircraft  ??? wide body, twin aisle, just few questions, nothing major.

Europe is always fun to play, as other players said, more choice, more fun.

Cheers
VJC

coopdogyo

  • Former member
Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 12:49:04 AM »
Production for the Saab ended 2 monthes after the start of the game maybe make the time longer in the future.

0zlw

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 03:23:31 AM »
Not too many problems, but my airport has 7 airlines, a bit outrageous all though not that much you can do about it.

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 07:05:08 AM »
So far I have no problems as usual. I don't like time restricted airports but I welcome the added challenge. I suspect of the 110+ airlines, only about 50 will be "stable" by games end.


Much like NAC, there will be 4-5 mega airlines that control most of Europe.



Talentz

Offline jimsom

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 07:34:33 AM »
EC is great so far, just too many players I think. 180 is a lot, i guess 100 looks about right.

I think player numbers are good. There are still plenty of room for more companies.
I think people are afraid of starting smaller airlines. Seems like everyone want to be the largest airline of them all.
/ jimsom

Offline EricB

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 08:05:23 AM »
I agree on what Jimmy is saying. Everybody just want to become the largest airline. Me myself are trying to get things working with two Jetstream 32's at a small airport up north. And believe me, that's more of a challenge than becoming a large airline at a popular airport. Its very hard to live on the margin, especially when the staffing for small companies in AWS is slightly unrealistic compared to real life.
// Eric Bergendahl

Offline EricB

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Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2009, 08:20:29 AM »
Just found one more bad thing for smaller airlines. Look at these figures and guess something wrong..

Maintenance costs for Jetstream 32 (19pax aircraft):
A check      4 450 USD
B check    11 571 USD
C check    267 019 USD
D check    1 335 093 USD

Maintenance costs for Boeing 757 (200pax aircraft):
A check      6 578 USD
B check      17 103 USD
C check      394 685 USD
D check      1 973 423 USD

EDIT: I will actually take my time to phone a maintenance company and check how much it costs to service the Jetstream 32 in real life. But one thing is for sure, it doesn't cost as much money as it costs to check a B757.


 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:23:19 AM by Eric Bergendahl »
// Eric Bergendahl

DenisG

  • Former member
Re: Feedback so far
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2009, 02:27:26 PM »
Feedback Euro Challenge

Hi Sami,

I think Euro Challenge is performing great so far, for the following reasons:

A. The number of players seems very adequate, leading to competitive moves setting in quite early in the game

B. The time phase enables us to fly out the whole spectrum of opportunities. The mid-hauls of Airbus and Boeing (120-180 pax) are kicking in and Embraer and Bombardier are set to follow on the important 70-100 pax routes. As a Saab2000-fan, I eventually have difficulties setting up my beloved short-hauls. Although not successful in reality, I believe that the a/c really had the edge to make a difference on routes up to 400nm, as I conducted in other scenarios. So, I believe that competition will not be that dependant on the a/c on short-hauls.

C. As mentioned before, I find Europe very attractive for the 'hard' challenge, because it leaves much more opportunities than the former Nort America scenario. Further, I personally disliked the former continental scenario due to the time phase and planes available.

D. Personally, I would suggest to activate the long-haul planes in this scenario. They may appear unappropriate at first glance, because most routes only lead up tp 2000nm, but the Asian market has shown ways implementing them as well (Taipeh-HongKong, etc.). Therefore, I would like to see them enabled in the next scenario, even if nobody buys them, it does not hurt.

E. In regard of the economies of small planes, I agree that there should be adaptions made to make them more fair in competition. In opposite to other opinions, I would not lower the maintenance costs for lower planes, but the staff levels and at the same time higher the maintenance costs for large a/c. 6,500 USD for an A-check on a 757 is definitely too low for one hour of work.

F. This leads me to my general request of making the economies much harder. In some way, I still think that flying profitable is way too easy, even when competition kicks in. If I compare my margins to those of real airlines, I am way too good. I would indeed like to see us flying on really hard profit levels, leading to the case of not having us grow a fleet of 50 a/c within 12 months of game play.

G. And another idea from me: It could be interesting to open a scenario in e.g. 1995 where the incumbant airlines are already there with there huge market shares as in reality. They would be operated by the artificial intelligence, or say, some of you guys at airwaysim. Making us players the newcomers with the challenge of finding ways to fly between them or against them. This would be my greatets dreamů It is similar to simply entering a scenario after 25% of time played and I personally find this the most challenging part of the game.

So, generally, you have done a tremendous job on this scenario and improved the simulation to a great level. So please do not forget, although we love whining around about almost everything, there is a great number of players that admire and enjoy your work.

Denis
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 02:33:46 PM by DenisG »

 

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