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Author Topic: Strategy or ruining the game??  (Read 2809 times)

Offline Dasha

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  • Posts: 1001
Strategy or ruining the game??
« on: October 29, 2009, 10:10:11 AM »
United Airlines is a great airline. Compliments to Tim for getting it up this good.

However,

the order list is just absurd. I wonder why the need for 226 mid range Airbusses come from when you already cover a lot of the that range. Is that to prevent others from buying them and prevent them to grow? Or are you buying them to lease them out?

If you are going to lease them out, please contact me because I am interested. If it is the first option, and you are ruining the game, I hope that mr Yury Luzhkov will evict you from the most beautiful city in the world as, in that case, you are not worthy to live there.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 03:29:30 PM »
I don't wish to respond on United's behalf, but consider that the game still has 23 years to go.  That means that any aircraft that you have now will probably not be on your books in the last year of this game.

I think the key to this game will be the ability to sustain the operation for such a long time.  The purchase of that many aircraft provides the flexibility to operate and/or lease them as the times change.  The demands on the routes may change significantly over the next 23 years and if anyone is doing any long term planning then they have to think big.

Just my thoughts.

Best Regards

Richard

kawalsahu

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 03:33:53 PM »
wow!thts a bit too many aircrafts by any measure.its like emirates buying 48 A380s..eventully they are cancelled anyway.

may i suggest that to bring the game close to reality,we limit the number of a/c tht can be ordered at one time.something like 30 a/c at a time max n once you get all the deliveries thn you can order 30 more if you like.just a suggestion.

it will allow fairer playground for all.

sami,is it possible?


Filippo

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 05:11:15 PM »
wow!thts a bit too many aircrafts by any measure.its like emirates buying 48 A380s..eventully they are cancelled anyway.

may i suggest that to bring the game close to reality,we limit the number of a/c tht can be ordered at one time.something like 30 a/c at a time max n once you get all the deliveries thn you can order 30 more if you like.just a suggestion.

it will allow fairer playground for all.

sami,is it possible?



Not really.

Airlines IRL order huge amounts of planes in bulk (take Emirates for example with their 48 A380) because some big airline just need big numbers of planes. Take me for example, I run United Arab Airlines from CAI in Modern Times and when the 787s come out I will need around 40 which will all substitute 2 of my fleet groups. IRL there is no such thing as limiting the ordering of aircrafts so why should it be done here? I get your point, but, som airlines just keep on needing planes!

Offline Runner

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2009, 05:41:59 PM »
Emirates is not going to need all of their 48 A380's. They are having (or had, don't know) trouble filling the Dubai-JFK flight when the introduced the 380! But time will tell! I do agree with you that there should be no limits to amount or orders, as that would be very unrealistic!

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2009, 04:40:18 AM »
This is fast time simulation, not real time simulation. When it comes to realism, there is a limit as to how realistic a simulation can be and retain its practicality.

In reality, the airlines have huge amounts of time to make decisions about which frames to buy, this is often based on a viability/feasibility study per route, business case for a/c type against a/c type and so on. We don't even closely replicate those processes.  It is a thumb-suck at best with little risk of failure (other than greediness causing you to have too many a/c and no routes to fly them on).

This game we play is nice and to be honest is pretty close to a good (high level) replication of reality but it remains a game and, in order to make it half/decent to play, there must be variations from reality.

Best Regards

Richard

PS : Sorry if I drifted off-topic slightly

Offline apenfold

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 09:36:10 AM »
Emirates did have trouble filling the A380 on the JFK route and as a result it was dropped - which was good news for us brits because I think it moved onto LHR - but they will be needing all 58 of them. In addition to the A380 orders they also have 70 orders and 50 options on A350 aircraft, their policy is to retain a young average fleet age so they will continue to expand but the chances are that the older A330/A340 and 777s will come out of service as the A350s arrive. Also remember that dubai is quite well positioned for connecting flights so there is demand for traffic through Dubai that requires more capacity than that of just those travelling to Dubai.

As to his large orders they do seem a little excessive however it could be long term planning for the future or he is going to operate A-B-C flights with them. The A330-300 doesn't have the range to cover a number of far eastern destinations so we will have to see how it plays out. Personally I am expecting to have similar numbers of orders however I am following the Emirates policy of low fleet age so the 100 A340-600's Im going to order will replace my A330/A340 fleets. The problem I have is that I have upwards of 70 long haul aircraft still to schedule, each requiring 1 slot per day (which is going to be tricky). I think that this could also be a problem for United Airways as his fleet grows. He has the advantage of being alone at LFPG and can take advantage of the 57 movements per hour however with the number of aircraft he has on order he will eventually struggle to fit in. We just have to hope that he is not planning on making second hubs at airports we already populate.

Offline mtnlion

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 01:29:06 PM »
And don't forget the slots. They are an issue in real life too! Emirates needs 380 because  on some routes they are allowed to fly only certain amount of flights per week, f.e. Toronto-Dubai

Offline apenfold

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 04:56:24 PM »
There is that, slots in the real world are gold at major airports. When EasyJet bought up GB Airways - who had 5 routes from EGLL - they sold the slots separately for an estimated 100,000,000. The A380 enables airlines to have smaller fleets and carry the same passengers. It is estimated that in the real world 1 in 7 aircraft at Heathrow will be an A380 reducing the number of aircraft visiting the airport freeing up slots and allowing more airlines to operate and saving the need for massive competition and bidding wars on the valuable landing slots.

Offline Dasha

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 07:34:32 AM »
But since this is a simulation... airlines ordering huge number of planes will ruin the game for the smaller airlines who will a) have to wait longer for their own planes and b) will have NO CHANCE penetrating the market.

Just a thought but I wouldn't mind a hard limit on planes one could order at the same time...
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 07:43:48 AM »
Dasha,

I understand your concerns, I have had the same recently.

I ended up using the second hand market to try different aircraft and build up my routes, eventually I started ordering my own aircraft by looking at the shortest waiting list (MD 82's and A300-600R's are ones I took for starters).

If you insist on getting the latest then you put yourself at a disadvantage.  I went from nothing to number #12 (fleet size) by starting with B707's and then migrating to A300's & MD 82's, now I have some large-ish orders for the aircraft I want.

Don't forget that this game has 20+ years to go.  Set yourself up and take your chances, I assure you, they will come.

Good Luck

Best Regards

Richard

Offline Dasha

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 08:08:58 AM »
Oh I'm okay. I have a good new fleet because I picked a good airport. I didn't mean a limit on planes you could HAVE but a limit on planes you can order at once. For example, if the limit is set on 20, you can only have 20 orders out at once. The moment you get one airplane, you can put in a new order but never more than the set 20 aircraft.

This will give the smaller airlines some chance to grow and it will prevent the order book of Boeing and Airbus to exceed 600 planes after just 5 months.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything

Riger

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 08:18:25 AM »
Dasha,

I see what you are saying.  I took a long hard look at the production slots before I ordered my aircraft, and as it turns out, you don't go to the back of the queue.  If I order 100 aircraft, I still get them at a steady rate of about 1/week.  Ordering in succession (as I do when I am strapped for cash) often simply adds aircraft to that process.

It is my understanding that if player1 orders 200 aircraft, and they will get delivered from 1 Jan 2005, then if player2 orders 5 aircraft, they will get theirs also from the same period (starting maybe a day or two later..).  Yes, if 10 players order 100 aircraft in succession, then they will block the starting point for delivery for some time, but the same would happen if they booked in 5 orders of 20 a/c or 2 orders of 50 a/c.  The only difference would be a discount reduction for smaller orders.

Caveat : this is my understanding of how it works, I am sure any error in my thinking will be shot down in flames soon enough.   ;)

Best Regards

Richard

Offline powi

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 10:22:44 AM »
When I operated from Dubai, I could fly 150-200 wide bodies. How long it would take to replace them with new ones if I could only order 20 at a time? 5 years for the first 20, then again waiting 5 years before the 21st arrives...

VH-MRH

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 12:27:41 PM »
Dasha,

It is my understanding that if player1 orders 200 aircraft, and they will get delivered from 1 Jan 2005, then if player2 orders 5 aircraft, they will get theirs also from the same period (starting maybe a day or two later..).  Yes, if 10 players order 100 aircraft in succession, then they will block the starting point for delivery for some time, but the same would happen if they booked in 5 orders of 20 a/c or 2 orders of 50 a/c.  The only difference would be a discount reduction for smaller orders.


That is my understanding also. This happens in IRL also. Also when this happens, sometimes the production rate can be ramped up, or in the 787s case, a new factory.

Filippo

  • Former member
Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2009, 10:39:16 AM »
But since this is a simulation... airlines ordering huge number of planes will ruin the game for the smaller airlines who will a) have to wait longer for their own planes and b) will have NO CHANCE penetrating the market.

Just a thought but I wouldn't mind a hard limit on planes one could order at the same time...

life isn't fair

Offline apenfold

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Re: Strategy or ruining the game??
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 10:39:01 PM »
I would just like to say now, as I realise that I am likely to be subject to controversy, that I am not planning to destroy other airlines. The figure of 470 orders is a misleading one. At present 20 of those are replacing current A320 aircraft. 30 777's are being used to add capacity to routes however these are currently set to be one of the last expansions in operational aircraft. All my current orders are to replace my ageing fleet of A340-300s, A330-300s and 777-200 aircraft. With regards to my A380 orders, that are highly likely to spark controversy, are simply to replace existing aircraft. It will allow me to consolidate 3 aircraft into two and therefore improve my business and customer service. My fleet at the moment exists of 280 Long Haul aircraft and 100 Short Haul (+10 if Embraer 145s are included). At the end of the game I am looking at operating 240 Long Haul aircraft (100 A380's and 100 A350's) plus 120 Short Haul aircraft whilst in the process increasing capacity by approximately 30% on 2002 Q1 projected capacity. Remaining the best operator at EGLL we are planning on further expansion throughout the world over the coming years.

 

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