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Online Airline Management Simulation
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Author Topic: Small Aircraft  (Read 3503 times)

Offline Daveos

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Small Aircraft
« on: September 25, 2009, 08:02:59 PM »
Sami said he'd changed the staffing levels for smaller aircraft in the new game to help facilitate regional airlines.  How are those with smaller aircraft finding their profitability?

Offline Sami

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 08:17:53 PM »
no, it hasn't been changed yet.

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 09:15:51 PM »
I have also found that it is harder to fill up smaller aircraft than their bigger brothers.  This makes it even harder to generate a profit early. 

I'd love to see how an entire fleet of Fokker 50s performs.

remdeb

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 11:07:43 PM »
I make good profit with my 9 ATR 42-300

Offline swiftus27

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2009, 12:22:48 AM »
It may appear that you are making good money from the My Aircraft screen, but the staff needed to keep those planes in the air can be prohibitive.

aircanada

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2009, 06:35:14 PM »
my fleet of Dash 8-300's are making money, you only need 2 pilots and 1 flight attendant

Offline Sigma

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 07:11:38 PM »
It's Marketing that really kills the small jets flying to smaller destinations.  Since your Marketing budget is a factor of your routes, and smaller regional airlines tend to operate to many more, and narrower, routes, an all-regional operation can find themselves putting as much as 40%+ of their total revenue into Marketing just to maintain a good CI.

In this latest Modern game, I was flying a fleet of 16 x A300s.  I then decided to use Fokker 100s to get to smaller destinations.  Yesterday I put 3 of them into service and my CI Marketing budget went up 50% -- a huge $3,000,000/week increase.  That's 5 TIMES the money that those planes could even hope to bring in.  My profit disappeared literally overnight.  But since the system calculates your Marketing budget based on the number of routes you have, and putting those planes into service flying to many smaller destinations increased my destinations significantly, I'm screwed.  Every single route I open up with those planes costs me so much more money with the incremental increase to my CI marketing, that I actually LOSE money (a lot of money) on every route I fly to.

Here's my chart.  You can see where I hit the thresholds for CI Marketing increases throughout the year, then, 3 weeks ago, you can see where I put those 3 Fokkers into service and the HUGE Marketing hit that I took as a result.  The bump in there about 3 months previously is where I put 3 A300s into service -- the marketing increase was TINY compared to the cost of putting 3 Fokkers into service since they went to more destinations, and those A300s make a LOT more money too.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 07:18:23 PM by Sigma »

Offline Daveos

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 07:58:22 PM »
Thanks Sigma,

That graph and explanation are brilliant - I really appreciate your post.  Despite playing since January, I'd never realised you could click on the pie-chart at the side of your inciome statement.  I'd been making graphs on excel!  :laugh:

I'm rethinking my plans now, as I thought the F100/70 would be perfect for my needs.  Fewer frequencies and larger aircraft seem the way forward.

Dave :)

Offline Maarten Otto

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 09:16:14 PM »
In my opinion Sami should get this on top of his "to do" list becouse a lot of us use smaller ac's and will find themselves go bankrupt due to marketing and staff costs. This can't be good for game play and fun.

Offline Sigma

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 09:27:17 PM »
I've started out with F28s and F100s in previous games without too much heartburn.  But your margins will never come remotely close to those of larger airlines due to the fact that you will pay a MUCH larger percentage of your revenues to Salaries and Marketing than they will.

The graph I posted above is an exaggeration of that problem.  If you flew an all F100 operation you wouldn't pay a cool Million in Marketing for every one you operate like I ended up doing last night, but you would be paying a very large percentage of your revenue to Marketing.  In my experience with F100s about 30% to maintain good CI while an A300 is less than 10% -- that's a HUGE difference to overall profitability (particularly when compounded with similar differences in Salaries).  The problem that I experience in my graph above is somewhat of an abberation, as the formula for CI costs seems to be a function of both Passengers moved and Routes operated.  Since I moved a great deal of pax on very few routes, when I increased my route count with the F100s, I seem to have found a problem with the formula where it's charging me exorbitant marketing sums for each new route that I open up.  It's the same problem you'd experience if you were running an all-Fokker operation, just exaggerated.

Offline highways1

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 09:50:30 PM »
Hey Sigma, enjoying the battle at DFW? I agree about the cost issue though. As Sigma stated the margins on planes like his A300's make it much more palatable in terms of marketing and staff versus planes like F100's. As has been said the costs for a CRJ should not equal a 747.

Offline Sigma

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
Hey Sigma, enjoying the battle at DFW?

Yeah, this problem I'm having with my F100s is gonna cost me big time though.  I sunk a lot of money into buying 15 of these babies, and the first 3 alone ended up costing me $10M in profits before I caught the problem.  Not much I could do about it except slash my Marketing budget though which isn't exactly helping.  This will definitely give you a leg-up on me.  My A300 order queue is down to just a couple more inbound, and I've got F100s sitting on the tarmac that I'm afraid to fly because I'm not sure what my Marketing budget is gonna do.

Offline highways1

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2009, 11:06:17 PM »
Yeah, I was a bit surprised you went after all those Fokkers I thought maybe you would go after some 757's on the market as they can hit the smaller routes but still get the C-Class money preconfigured. Their actually my biggest fleet group right now but I'm sure that will change because their lease costs are considerably more than 737's.

ReedME

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 03:02:48 PM »
I'm really struggling with my fleet of Embraer 120's, The profit margins are so small I have to keep marketing and salaries to a bare minimum to make any money. The only reason I tried this pass was that there was no valuable option as far as jets were concerned. Looks like I'm due for a very slow slog out of the gates that is providing I don't go bankrupt  :-\

ban2

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 06:18:31 PM »
i'm operating 6 F27 500s after getting 7 million in the red i am now just after 2 yrs starting to make a small profit. in 6 months i hope to be in a position to start replacing my older aircraft.

you certainly have to be on the ball in every aspect of the game to make a success with smaller aircraft.

Offline Sami

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 06:38:32 PM »
fyi, the first change on this matter will be splitting the pilot costs into three categories according to the aircraft size. But no schedule for that yet.

ReedME

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2009, 01:50:03 AM »
i'm operating 6 F27 500s after getting 7 million in the red i am now just after 2 yrs starting to make a small profit. in 6 months i hope to be in a position to start replacing my older aircraft.

you certainly have to be on the ball in every aspect of the game to make a success with smaller aircraft.

Yea I agree with you, I'm 2 million in the red, but I'm slowly decreasing the weekly loss but it is really not easy work with smaller aircraft


And Sami, I think that would help immensly

ban2

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2009, 11:08:02 PM »
after a short depressing period where i felt i was going nowhere fast i have started to work the marketing a bit to my advantage...

i run local marketing up to radio no tv permanantly, but i am only running country wide marketing up to radio no tv for 3 months, then stopping it for 3-4 weeks then starting  country wide again for 3 months.

my image does drop a bit but in the mean time i gain about 300k a week for 3 weeks and by re introducing the country wide marketing it boosts my image and load factors back up.

slowly but surley i am paying back my overdraft and the last time i looked my profit margin was 3.06%

Razor2

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 11:04:56 AM »
Some solution would be a very nice addition to the game.
I had a a fleet of about 20 regional airliners (F27s than Dash8s) in Jetage 2 and it seemed to work, but when I tried the conventional approach with 150 seater jets in another game, it was like a cash cow compared to the regional approach.

So currently it seems that there is only 1 major way playing airwaysim if you want to mess with the big boys, and this should be changed. It should be possible to build a financially successful regional airline or an LCC, not just a conventional airline with normal jets, and normal prices.

Offline Runner

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Re: Small Aircraft
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 02:17:41 PM »
Razor (and others),

You're making a solid point. And I agree with you! But: all of this has already been said tons of times! I think before the beta's even started, there was talk of building LCC's (regionals I don't remember). But all of this require's sami to design the system, then build it (in script language), test it, before finally releasing it. And even then, you can never predict how everything is going to work out. So I think we should all just have a little patience. Not everything can be dealt with right away! And if I'm not mistaking, sami has a life to!  ;)

 

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