C-check scheduling

[Yarnam]

It's nice to know that my FOUR-year-old post is finally getting some traction. 

Sometimes it just takes a little time, I guess.

Well your post is over 5 years old now and we still don't have anything happening on this.

We simply need a c check scheduling and aircraft substitution system. I am a medium sized company and c checks absolutely kill my profit and they can BK a new company. We need to be able to schedule a c check and substitute another aircraft, In real life (which we are trying to simulate here) there is no way an airline would just shut down a route for 20 days to do aircraft maintenance. Yet this is basically what I have to do because even if I have a substitute aircraft and happen to be online at the right moment to swap the flights over I am still screwed when 2 aircraft require a C check. There simply has to be a better way to do this. Could you please chime in Sami as I believe this is a very important issue. I am a relatively new player and I am tired of going BK because of C Checks. I takes the fun out of the game for me. There are enough challenges for a new player without trying to deal with this one which is almost completely out of our control. I would almost guarantee you that this is one issue that is costing you real money.

[Sami]

If you are going bust because of C checks, then the problems are TOTALLY elsewhere than in the lack of this replacement feature..

tip is just to let the automation handle the c checks, and do not have any planes sitting idle waiting to act as replacements. The replacement scheme really only works if you have more than a dozen planes in each fleet.

....but anyway, this feature is currently not in short term plans.

[Yarnam]

If you are going bust because of C checks, then the problems are TOTALLY elsewhere than in the lack of this replacement feature..

tip is just to let the automation handle the c checks, and do not have any planes sitting idle waiting to act as replacements. The replacement scheme really only works if you have more than a dozen planes in each fleet.

....but anyway, this feature is currently not in short term plans.

Actually you should probably revisit your C check intervals anyway, on the Boeing 777 for example in real life they are about 16 to 20 months apart, not 12. Even longer with the implementation of MSG maintenance routines. Page 13 of this document shows a pretty good example of current check maintenance intervals.

http://www.aircraftmonitor.com/uploads/1/5/9/9/15993320/basics_of_aircraft_maintenance_programs_for_financiers___v1.pdf

Basically the entire check schedule is wrong according to this document.

[Disorder]

Hi guys,

I'm new to this game and I feel like my C check will destroy my company, but at least stop my growth. I'm relatively OK on money and good on profit, but since I operate from a smaller base, I have only 6 aircraft (3xa320, 3xq400). Sadly two of my a320s will have the C check nearly at the same time (they will share 7 days of the checks). Meaning, 40% of my revenue will go away for 7 days and about 20-30% for an other 7 days.
What should I do? Force the C check one of the planes to make it earlier, so I'll have a more stable cash flow or just let it happen as it is and go for luck? Later this year two of my q400s will have the exact same fate.

This scheduling feature would be amazing and would make it easier to handle.

Thanks,
Chris

UPDATE: And there we go. The previous double C-check was managable, but as I woke up this morning, I just lost 10M+ dollars (which is lot for a small European airliner), since I was not able to wake up at 4am to force the C Check. 2 of my most valuable planes were off, others were waiting for delivery, I lost slots, etc. Please, make C check and route swaps(!!) sheduling available! Thanks!

[Ligo]

Haha... I have a fleet of 26 aircrafts B737 adv. ALMOST all my routes are competed by another players. That means that I have to try hard to be "in game". And what do I see today? I have two aircrafts on C-check and one more oncoming in 4 days. That means that after these 4 days I will be without 6 routes for 4 days. as far as 3 of 26 my aircrafts will be out of service. The only way to avoid this cashflow gap is to abandone leasing contract and lease a new one. I will keep my routes online at least.
What would be if I can manage C-checks by myself? I think it is already written in this thread:))

I understand, that C and D-checks are probably based on flight hours amount (as it is written in wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks). Why would not it be allowed to players to manage C-checks exact dates based on theirs routes planned? (read as "flight hours planning")? For example, if I know about C-check oncoming, I can rearrange one of routes to another aircraft so that the first one would go to c-check at the more convinient date. In this way, step by step, I can organize all my routes in a proper order during a game year (or two) and use my a/c fleet for 8-10 years more with no such significant income fluctuations. And It would be closer to real life, I guess.

P.S. It is easy to calculate in excel approximate dates of C-checks if I know flight duration (see attachment)

[Aoitsuki]

so basically you are complaining that C-check is destroying your airline because you have competition, and to solve it is to allow planned c check so you can use a hot spare to fly it.

Bottom line is your argument is invalid, you are essentially paying for the 2 weeks delivery of leased aircraft without revenue, having an aircraft without permanent schedule. If you can micromanage to the point where the hot spare aircraft will be constantly flying your c check routes nonstop your airline will not care about C or D checks. You are making a mistake somewhere else.

[Ligo]

Heh... I just tried to follow Sami's advice in this topic:

"If you are going bust because of C checks, then the problems are TOTALLY elsewhere than in the lack of this replacement feature..

tip is just to let the automation handle the c checks, and do not have any planes sitting idle waiting to act as replacements. The replacement scheme really only works if you have more than a dozen planes in each fleet.

....but anyway, this feature is currently not in short term plans."

And what I can conclude for myself - it is bad automation.

[Ligo]

I think it is worth to try splitting the route into two a/c with less passenger capacity to reduce traffic loss when one of a/c goes to c-check.

[JumboShrimp]

I posted a feature request a while ago about pools of aircraft that would be assigned to schedules, rather than individual aircraft, and the system would automatically re-assign replacement aircraft from available aircraft in a pool, in case of C/D check:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,54631.msg314923.html#msg314923

[gazzz0x2z]

I posted a feature request a while ago about pools of aircraft that would be assigned to schedules, rather than individual aircraft, and the system would automatically re-assign replacement aircraft from available aircraft in a pool, in case of C/D check:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,54631.msg314923.html#msg314923

I guess the difficulty is those nice planes with 20+ variants, each with different range(and other things, but only range matter here). Especially when you build a fleet on used planes, it's a nightmare to have a standardized fleet. Or even new. Take the F70, a plane with a single engine...but 4 different weights. Currently, in GW3, the 1110NM version costs 27,485M$, while the 2010NM version costs 36,941M$. That's one third more in terms of cost of acquisition. It's huge. If you've got a mixed fleet, the algorithm will have an headache. And if you fly only the LR version, you're wasting around 3-4% of exploitation margin(if you lease).

In other words, that's not at all something easy to do. And I'm not even sure it is desirable.

[pascaly]

I posted a feature request a while ago about pools of aircraft that would be assigned to schedules, rather than individual aircraft, and the system would automatically re-assign replacement aircraft from available aircraft in a pool, in case of C/D check:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,54631.msg314923.html#msg314923

To me, this is a more realistic approach. Each route is flown by the best suited (based on location, maintenance availability etc).

The other thing all the people complaining about their C checks seem to forget is, EVERYBODY has to do C checks. You're plane is out for 2 weeks this year? Well, guess what, so is your competitors. Swings and round-abouts. I've yet to see any evidence that having a dedicated "bounce bird" to cover C and D checks makes more money than just putting the plane on a regular schedule and making money off it that way.

[gazzz0x2z]

To me, this is a more realistic approach. Each route is flown by the best suited (based on location, maintenance availability etc).

But who will decide what is "best"? How? What criterion? It seems to me that it would be a door open to endless complaning "waaaaah, the machine did not choose the proper aircraft" for something that is not worth it, as you noticed here :

The other thing all the people complaining about their C checks seem to forget is, EVERYBODY has to do C checks. You're plane is out for 2 weeks this year? Well, guess what, so is your competitors. Swings and round-abouts. I've yet to see any evidence that having a dedicated "bounce bird" to cover C and D checks makes more money than just putting the plane on a regular schedule and making money off it that way.

[COUGAR]

I raised this exact same request on another thread.

I have around 45 ATP's with 2 hot-spares. I have to manually cycle them for the checks. I do it, but if I go on vacation even for a couple of days, the system is out of whack!

A C-Check scheduling system with Hot-Spares would be nice to have!


PS: Does C-Check down time count towards cancellations and hence Company Image?

[Aoitsuki]

i think the system is too complex for such little gain. almost everyone is taking the hit for c/d check, if you want to optimize, do it manually. Having a automated system means everyone may do it, and you get 0 gain from it, especially against large wealthy airline who doesn't care if they have 100+ aircraft on the ground already.

sometimes you may have 2-3 or even 10 aircraft doing C-D check, there is no real way of automation without major overhaul to the system. having hot spare while not having large enough fleet to cycle everyday is a waste in your finance especially if you lease the aircraft. Having 3 types of aircraft means you will need to keep 3-6 hotspare that can easily turn into revenue if you put them into normal schedule.

For some of your example if you have 25 aircraft and want to keep them 100% uptime, you will need 1-2 aircraft (assuming one type). that's almost 10% of your fleet.

PS: Does C-Check down time count towards cancellations and hence Company Image?

no.


Please tell me, what will you guys gain if sami(spending many hours) implement this automated system?

[Ligo]

Is it normal to have 3-4 constant c-checks during the whole month while aircraft fleet consists of 35 planes only? (11 C-checks in a month)
http://clip2net.com/s/3hWgMmk (2 C-checks has just passed)

I have this situation in September and really think it will kill me. It would not happen had I possibility to manage this situation somehow...
I think it is a really big impact with real financial operation activity...

[Ligo]

Please tell me, what will you guys gain if sami(spending many hours) implement this automated system?

I will gain more stable and planned cashflow which is important to plan firther development. But now it is a disaster for my company acting on a high competitive market. For now I have to manage this situation by pricing manipulations, loose my market positions and passenger traffic.

[Aoitsuki]

Is it normal to have 3-4 constant c-checks during the whole month while aircraft fleet consists of 35 planes only? (11 C-checks in a month)
http://clip2net.com/s/3hWgMmk (2 C-checks has just passed)

yes, when you first started your airline, especially the first 4 weeks you can obtain up to 8 aircraft that all falls into the same C check month, and ongoing month also if you are not careful.

eg: first month get 8 aircraft with 9 month c check remain, then second month get 8 aircraft with 8 month c check remaining assume they are wide body and require 20 days to check, all 16 aircrafts can fall on the same c check cycle.

I had a fleet of 500 in one game, and 400 of them will automatically C check and D check at the same time due to storage system. As long as you have cash reserve it really doesn't really matter, it is not game breaking enough for me to make any adjustment.

I will gain more stable and planned cashflow which is important to plan firther development.

when you first acquire your aircraft, you know when you will have your c check, it is shown on your lease page. Also you can engage in c check before the one year schedule starts.

But now it is a disaster for my company acting on a high competitive market. For now I have to manage this situation by pricing manipulations, loose my market positions and passenger traffic.

regardless what you do, you will still trigger c check in a pre-determined amount of time. In this case it is one year game time. if you cannot afford the C check, then your business model have issue.
market position means nothing in this game other then bragging right. EVERYONE will miss revenue one way or another on a specific route every year unless you put a hot spare aircraft in. But who is going to pay for that hotspare aircraft if they are not using for check? That's inefficient.  Also you can have a airline half your size with half the revenue and somehow makes way more money then their bigger counterpart.

If you want market position overload the route 200%, that's a fool proof way of discourage your competition, and ensure you won't loose your piece of pie when one goes offline for checks.


Bottom line, you should never use all your cash to expand, always keep some for checks, random event such as 9/11, aws random system and fuel spike. No smart business in this world is crazy enough to spend every single penny on investment without any cash reserve.

quoting from sami:

If you are going bust because of C checks, then the problems are TOTALLY elsewhere than in the lack of this replacement feature..

tip is just to let the automation handle the c checks, and do not have any planes sitting idle waiting to act as replacements. The replacement scheme really only works if you have more than a dozen planes in each fleet.

[Ligo]

when you first acquire your aircraft, you know when you will have your c check, it is shown on your lease page. Also you can engage in c check before the one year schedule starts.

Here is the solution! It was so obvious:) I knew about extra A and B checks but not even thought about possibility to make an extra C-check.
I think my negative is eliminated by this one sentence:)

And yes, You're totally right about cash reserve. It is a global mistake that I've made from the beginning... Trying to correct it but.. late:)

[Aoitsuki]

but really, don't worry about share and revenue. work on how to make profit. Most if not all player makes mistake, and many of them still hit the big red bankrupt button even after 2 years of game play. Don't be afraid to ask question and get a mentor, they can find error you may miss.

[JumboShrimp]

i think the system is too complex for such little gain. almost everyone is taking the hit for c/d check, if you want to optimize, do it manually. Having a automated system means everyone may do it, and you get 0 gain from it, especially against large wealthy airline who doesn't care if they have 100+ aircraft on the ground already.

It is not at all a little sum.  Let's take a very large aircraft as an example:
- 80 day D check, every 8 years, 10 days per year
- 20 day C check, once per year, 20 days per year
- 12 B checks per year

Total is 42 days that the aircraft is not available per year, out of 365.  Or, to look at it another way, aircraft is flying it's schedule 323 days, schedule is not being flown 42 days.  So the loss of revenue is 10-13%, depending on the way you look at it.

If you have 10 LH schedules, you need 11.3 aircraft to fly them.
If you have 100 LH schedules, you need 113 aircraft to fly them.

The inefficiency comes from staffing.  The staff level you have includes vacations etc, but not C/D checks.  During a D check, you are basically giving everyone extra 80 paid days off, on top of their vacations.

There are other good reasons for automated checks:
- your airport may be slot constrained, and you may not be able to create new routes.  But you may be able to get 13% extra aircraft.
- you may have a real life, and not be able to get to scheduling every day, right on the dot, when a new aircraft arrives.  So the newly arrived aircraft will go to a spare pool, and it may start earning revenue right away, not a week later, when you actually get to scheduling the aircraft.

sometimes you may have 2-3 or even 10 aircraft doing C-D check, there is no real way of automation without major overhaul to the system. having hot spare while not having large enough fleet to cycle everyday is a waste in your finance especially if you lease the aircraft. Having 3 types of aircraft means you will need to keep 3-6 hotspare that can easily turn into revenue if you put them into normal schedule.

For some of your example if you have 25 aircraft and want to keep them 100% uptime, you will need 1-2 aircraft (assuming one type). that's almost 10% of your fleet.

Please tell me, what will you guys gain if sami(spending many hours) implement this automated system?

It is all outlined in this thread:

https://www.airwaysim.com/forum/index.php/topic,54631.msg314682.html#msg314682

Some conceptual changes:
- schedules would be entities, independent of aircraft, able to be named by player outside of restrictions of country registration codes.
(you can also pre-schedule this way - create full schedules before the aircraft arrives)
- "like" aircraft could be placed in groups - pools.
- you assign either a specific aircraft to a schedule or a pool of aircraft
- system would manage which aircraft from the pool is assigned to a schedule.  If one aircraft from the pool becomes unavailable, a different aircraft from the pool would be automatically reassigned to the schedule.