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Author Topic: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease  (Read 6598 times)

roboczar

  • Former member
Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« on: June 18, 2009, 08:12:23 PM »
I feel bad for people who get tricked into leasing these.

There should be a easy to see warning before people lease aircraft that have a C or D check due within 1 month or expired. Players are using this method to get out of paying for their own maintenance.

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 08:26:49 PM »
I feel bad for people who get tricked into leasing these.

There should be a easy to see warning before people lease aircraft that have a C or D check due within 1 month or expired. Players are using this method to get out of paying for their own maintenance.

Why do you feel it is a trick or that "people are getting out of paying for their own maintenance"? The operator of the aircraft pays for the maintenance, not the owner. As for why someone would lease planes with heavy checks due, it's either the supply & demand thing again if there simply are not better aircraft available or the learning curve thing if there are. Either way I'd say it's part of the game.

roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 08:55:23 PM »
When someone puts up 6 aircraft that are all due for C checks at the same time, it sure seems like one to me. :)

Anyway, the "Are you sure you want to lease this plane that's due for a heavy check soon" dialog isn't hard to add and would prevent experienced players exploiting new players, in order to keep from having to pay for heavy checks.

Kontio

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 09:12:13 PM »
Anyway, the "Are you sure you want to lease this plane that's due for a heavy check soon" dialog isn't hard to add and would prevent experienced players exploiting new players, in order to keep from having to pay for heavy checks.

If we go that route we might as well have an "Are you sure you want to lease this plane that was made in Russia" dialog or "Are you sure you want to lease this plane with the fuel price being what it is" dialog.

DenisG

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 09:14:06 PM »
It's definitely not an exploit! Most people here are able to read and write. If you sign a contract, you know what you're buying.

It's a part of the game, because this game lives from human behaviour and errors. From provocations and wrong decisions. Those can only be made by humans. The more you add the artificial help, the more inflexible it gets. Consider the already discussed topic about warnings, once a competitor enters one of your routes. Of course, nice to have, but it would make it so easy for the big airlines to fight new entrants. And in reality, you have no system automatically telling you that a competitor is entering your routes. You need somebody in operations controlling who tracks this and will let you know. And even then, the operations controller will make mistakes or be on holiday at the moment. I love the human touch of this game and it should remain. Otherwise, you get a game like airline tycoon, only with a lot more detail.

Denis

Offline Sami

  • Administrator
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  • Posts: 14535
    • AirwaySim - Are you the next Richard Branson?
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 09:26:07 PM »
There should be a easy to see warning before people lease aircraft that have a C or D check due within 1 month or expired. Players are using this method to get out of paying for their own maintenance.

Well that data couldn't be displayed in any more clearer way in the aircraft pages than it is now really.. As that is visible on the right hand side of the aircraft view and also on another point with the exclamation icon if it's expired, as you probably know.

roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 09:26:51 PM »
Denis/Kontio

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm suggesting this to make the game more accessible and less frustrating to new users. A friend of mine that I invited to the game made that mistake, even after reading the "manual" and wasted a bankruptcy.

I don't understand the hostility towards the idea. All real airlines would have teams of advisors to suggest the very same thing during a decision to lease an aircraft. The same goes for all the other "helper" dialogues. What exactly are we paying the "Upper Management" people for? To look pretty?

I think there should be an "advice" option that you can turn on or off where your "management" would play an advisory role and warn you about potentially damaging decisions. It already happens when you mess with salaries; by your logic, the game shouldn't warn people that lowering salaries has a bad effect on morale and image.

roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 09:29:44 PM »
Well that data couldn't be displayed in any more clearer way in the aircraft pages than it is now really.. As that is visible on the right hand side of the aircraft view and also on another point with the exclamation icon if it's expired, as you may know.

When someone clicks the "Lease Aircraft" link, have the application query the database and if the "time until C or D check" is a month or less, have javascript throw up a warning. I'm not talking about the aircraft info page itself. :)

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 09:53:40 PM »
Mm wouldn't this be more of a "trial and error" issue?

Everyone is going to make mistakes. Whither or not its in the manual. The best way to learn is from your mistakes.


Even though your parents told you fire was hot, did that stop you from putting your hand in the fire?  





Talentz

roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 10:15:55 PM »
I think it would be far more productive and less frustrating for new players if time was spent learning how to run the airline successfully in terms of overall strategy, as opposed to making one mistake that you cannot possibly recover from; a mistake that is being put to good use by other players in order to avoid having to pay maintenance on multiple aircraft that come due at the same time.

I would much rather fail because of poor choice of route, pricing or aircraft type than someone lowballing a lease to trick me into footing their maintenance bill and getting the aircraft back shiny and new when I bankrupt.

There's a difference between making mistakes and failing, and being exploited by someone who understands how to game the system.

roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 10:19:41 PM »
I'm getting the feeling that this "tactic" might be in widespread use based on the replies. Any thoughts on that?

DenisG

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 10:23:48 PM »
Denis/Kontio

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm suggesting this to make the game more accessible and less frustrating to new users. A friend of mine that I invited to the game made that mistake, even after reading the "manual" and wasted a bankruptcy.

I don't understand the hostility towards the idea. All real airlines would have teams of advisors to suggest the very same thing during a decision to lease an aircraft. The same goes for all the other "helper" dialogues. What exactly are we paying the "Upper Management" people for? To look pretty?

I think there should be an "advice" option that you can turn on or off where your "management" would play an advisory role and warn you about potentially damaging decisions. It already happens when you mess with salaries; by your logic, the game shouldn't warn people that lowering salaries has a bad effect on morale and image.

Hi roboczar,

well, how can I put it differently? I am strongly in favor of having success depend on the players' personal skills and experience. Making mistakes like the classic C-Check disaster for me is simply part of that. And there are many more I commited already and learned from it. In fact I would not consider it a problem if the game did not warn about the consequences of lowering staff salaries; I didn't even know there was a warning until you wrote it - I simply considered it pretty business basic.

As to your point about advisors and management responsibilities: Well, my experience in a number of companies is just that - they make mistakes and pretty awkward ones, including me. The most simple things not followed upon or everybody relying on the other. There will be wrong demand forecasts, there will be wrong fleet policy etc. Take a look at the airline industry's path from 1985 until today. The strategic mistakes they did. The hub-policy wave, then followed by the direct routings from mid-to-mid airports worldwide. Then the plane efficiency due to high fuel costs etc...

I believe that these tiny little pieces of simple tasks being wrongly handed can make a significant difference in success. For that I find the game so loveable. I can compete with true humans and apply all different strategies and tactics, not being able to anticipate their reaction clearly, like I could with AI.

Denis

DenisG

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 10:29:46 PM »
Well, I agree that it would be easier for new players, but I don't see an advantage for the game by that.

I absolutely cannot see a 'widely used trick or tactic' in this. Some people just put their planes on sale and then some planes in fact are on the list for 9 months and more. So of course, C-check will expire sometimes. And it's economically fair, you would normally calculate the partial C-check time costs and bring it into the negotiations. I do that on other occasions, just writing a pm to those players and enquiring about a sale for this and that price for the reasons... Either you lower the a/c price because of upcoming c-checks or you higher it due to no checks coming up soon.

Normal delivery is 14 days and adding a c-check makes it one month as far as I can recall. I have not so far been in a situation where I had to get my a/c in the air within 14 days and 21 days would have been my bust.

Talentz

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 10:36:52 PM »
All good points but at some point you do have to cut people lose and let them learn as they go.

In all that happened to your friend, he learned one of the most important things to watch for when selecting an aircraft. That is to pay attention to the little numbers on the right hand corner. Right?

Had he spent 5 more secs looking at those numbers, he would have noticed something was off. For whatever reason he did not, it cost him in terms of the situation he was put in by leasing said aircraft.

I bet now, he pays attention to the aircraft's detailed info. Right?

Lesson learned. A tough one? Probably. It cost him a bankruptcy.

But a lesson learned non the less.

Quote
and being exploited by someone who understands how to game the system.

You can never counter human ingenuity. For every system put in place, someone, somewhere is figuring out a way to go around it. That's a fact of life.

It's no different in relation to this game or any other.


Quote
someone lowballing a lease to trick me into footing their maintenance bill and getting the aircraft back shiny and new when I bankrupt.

What proof is there that said player's intent was to fool your friend?


Honestly, your friend made a mistake. The same mistake most players that are play currently made. The same mistake I made when I first started playing.

Seems like the only difference is we didn't cry foul when pushed to the ground. We picked ourselves up, pat the dust off, and continued to move forward.


Wasn't that considered learning the ropes?  ???


Albert


roboczar

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 10:57:46 PM »
Well, what can I say. It's a barrier to entry and easily fixed. I made the case so as to prevent cynical exploitation of new players.

I plan on using the trick myself once I have my own planes, the advantages are apparent and if other people are doing it, I can't afford not to. :)

With luck and a little creativity I may never need to pay for another heavy check again.

bigdogshark62

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2009, 03:44:30 AM »
How about this for a happy medium:

My brain is somewhat fried from years of work and sports and late nights and such...  Several times I start the process, only to have to go back to the original screen to remind myself what the "time until check" is for that aircraft.  So, with that in mind, is it possible to just add a section in the sale/lease screen that shows "Time until C:" and "Time until D:" as you're buying?  I'm not saying to have have any pop-ups or any warnings or anything like that.  Rather, simply allow that info to be carried over to the next screen, much like age, hours flown, engine type, etc..  That way there is no warning (so the "human" factor is still there), but the information is carried over so it's there in front of the buyer/lessee if they choose to look at it.  And then, with the info in front of them TWICE, they can't say "I didn't know" or "Experienced players are exploiting the system."  

Just a suggestion.   8)

Oh yeah...  And just so you know, *I* went through the same thing.  My very first lease went straight into D check, and I bk'd before I even flew a route.   :P   :laugh:  Learning process.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 03:47:01 AM by bigdogshark62 »

mikeymike

  • Former member
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2009, 06:37:55 AM »
Er, am i missing something here??   

1. You need a plane
2. you look at used aircraft market
3. you see plane u need
4. you check it out (ie age/leasing costs/fuel burn/pax options/and MAINTAINENCE requirements!)
5. you decide if you want it

doesnt seem like rocket science to me and we were all new to this game once! and to be honest i didnt think when i was new and i dont think now that the data on planes could be displayed any clearer

I know how about you just get sami to play the game for you then you wouldnt have to make any decisions!

Mike - UBA
 

Offline JonesyUK

  • Members
  • Posts: 653
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2009, 12:37:34 PM »
I don't think airlines are trying to fleece people. I've got so many plans on sale, it's soo much hassle to take planes off sale, do the checks and put them back on again.

Offline powi

  • Members
  • Posts: 435
Re: Cheesy: Aircraft with expired C check for Lease
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2009, 02:10:49 PM »
I like buying aircraft with due C-checks. The C-check is done before the aircraft is added to my fleet commonality costs so it's cheaper to do the check that way.

I've bought my second aircraft that way and it worked very well - the aircraft flow full 12 months before first time going into c-check and out of routes.

 

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